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TMJ Disorder -TemporoMandibular Joint Message Board


TMJ Disorder -TemporoMandibular Joint Board Index


TL, I drew a scheme of your "teeth" and I think I can see it now.
The symptoms you describe are like I have but just in a mirror, your left is my right. The only symptom that I "lost" after the last molar crown removal is that pull up which you do when you try for the two points on your back right side to touch. On the other hand I have a harder time now to place my jaw to the back, it tends to fall forward and my fronts become "too close" while before they were too far forward. I am so lost now, lost the last signs of my former comfortable bite.

And I do have the same inability of my jaw to close down to the contacts on my right (your left) side. If I try it, the jaw swings over to the other side. Sometimes it even "stays" there for few days. I thought that this was really smth. unique since I am so weird in my bite! Amazing! And my right jaw is healthier, as they say. What I feel about this is that on my right (your left) side there is really a very certain VDO which has to be present.
Also I can't sleep on this side at all since if the jaw falls out to the right, I am in pain, choking, and other "fun".

[Personally I think he had my jaw pushed too far left - which is another thing I don't understand ...] I think I can relate to this too! I think this is just the same issue of leveling the plane. The jaw falls further out to the lower side (on the lower plane) and this is why it does not stop within the arches. If it falls out too much on the healthy side it pulls out too much the UNHEALTHY side which does not like it, so it pulls it back and keeps it there.

[The grinding though still happens occasionally but usually when I am laying down - do you think its from the chin or front teeth area being pushed too far up since there are no teeth there?]
This I am not sure. I have some sounds in the jaw too, sometimes just the feeling that the bones prevent each other to move (it's painful) as if the condyle is forced to move across the "rails".
Laying down on your back or on your side? I'd think that if you are on the side the grinding can be b/c there are no teeth to stop the jaw from going too far to the side. Normally the jaw has to be within the canine guidance which causes the neuro-response to relax once the canines touch. I try to block my jaw by pillows.
Actually if there are no front teeth the jaw does not always go forward as easy as it happens with the wrong contacts on the inner inclines of the upper fronts. This is why I can't wear my fronts, they pull the jaw forward when I sleep but w/o them the jaw goes more up and down, and not front and back.

I hope too that you won't need to go to your bros. This trip can be so exhausting for you to say the least, and so unpredictable.
Well, I am so tired by now…
Stillhope - while its encouraging we seem to have the same things going on - everything you mention in terms of symptoms and what is happening to you I can so relate to - at least I know I am not alone or crazy - it frustrates me that we seem to understand and know what our mouths need but can not convey this to dentists. I so agree about the "certain" VOD on the left side - that and the canine guidance issue - as that is what was the first things that I had issue with before my meltdown. The prostho I went to broke my left central upper molar (the repair was too low and I told him so) and then he changed the left upper canine crown and it started to hurt immediately - felt twisted - so its guidance ability must have been changed - another thing he gave me a weird look on when I told him it was "pointing" in the wrong direction.

LTC - I think my bro told me its Feb 11 -18 - 7 days. I am pretty certain my splints will be in before then. Yeah - at this point the chiro (actually all the chiros I have seen) have been the only ones to have made difference so far - if anyhting - the dentists have made it worse. But I need teeth - so I am "stuck ". That new dr in my town is an LVI dentist - so I was going to give him a try next if this doesn't work.

Do either of you know what an OBI dentist is - I saw it referred to recently on the boards and just wondered what they did - is it similar to LVI? Or do you think that was a typo since the O and the B are near the L and the V on the keyboard?

Also - I saw this add in the paper of a local dentist who does full mouth reconstruction and the before and after pictures were amazing - many of the before pictures had people missing teeth or those with broken little stubs that kind of look like mine and the after shots were so impressive. But the ad didn't mention if the dentist treated tmj or not - but does it matter at this point?

LTC - Are you going to continue with the osteo - even though you are changing dentists?
LTC, I know so well that feeling of "sickness" when I add the numbers that the dentists made on me, or even the other $ I spent to check my TMJ, neck, massages, and related stuff. That's why by now I became so skeptical about their intentions. They say that one has to always think why is someone doing what they are doing, b/c there is always some self benefit behind it. Well, we share things b/c we feel less lonely and we learn from each other! But a team of dentist-osteo or three dentists (general, perio, endo) who demand that a patient see all three before they will tell you what to do is suspicious (I had this done, of course for $$ just to know that they won't take my case!!).

TL, [...- at least I know I am not alone or crazy - it frustrates me that we seem to understand and know what our mouths need but can not convey this to dentists.] I understand! What I think can work is our increased confidence that "we are not crazy". I said this few times to dentists now referring to the forum where I read similar stories, and instead of a blank look they said, "oh, yes, you are not crazy; there are many patients...". It gives them a different outlook so that they will have to think and question themselves and feel more responsible about what they do! This is my hope anyway.

[I so agree about the "certain" VOD on the left side - that and the canine guidance issue - as that is what was the first things that I had issue with before my meltdown. ] I thought more about your "tight skirt" and I can relate to that too. Again I feel it's because of the low VDO. Just my analogue was in terms of a frame for the swings. Imagine you have an upside down П - shaped piece of stiff wire (this is our jaw) which you hang by the open ends. Now try to make it "shorter" than it is on one side (but it can't bend!), surely it will just go out all together to that side. You can't make these "legs" shorter than the bones are or than the muscles can contract in attempt to bite at a point that is not on the path of these swings. Yes, the jaw can go also forward and back but again within a certain limit! Still this is a hard bone which can't change its shape!!

[The prostho ... changed the left upper canine crown and it started to hurt immediately - felt twisted - so its guidance ability must have been changed - another thing he gave me a weird look on when I told him it was "pointing" in the wrong direction.] Even those who told me that canines are very essential (like the one from September) messed it up w/o any idea why! Well, I took a file and filed it little by little to where it approximately was before his work, so it's somewhat better.

I hope very much that your splints will be good this time; the dentist really seemed to take it in his hands. However, if not maybe by then I will know better about my new dentist. I can't wait to recommend someone who helped me. He might be even closer to your place than to mine.

An OBI dentistry is bio-aesthetic. I searched and what they say makes sense. This seems to be actually about the same as I expect from Pankey and Kois dentists. And LVI seem to be really more into money-making thing -- good ads, business managing, getting clients, how to talk to them, impress and so on. I mean there are good people in everything, so I am not sure that this is the rule but I'd be more careful with an LVI than with the other ones.
LTC's new dentist does seem to be a good one.

TL, be careful about nice ads- I tried it with "top dentists" who have amazing ads and photos. Not every FMR is difficult! What's much more difficult is the jaw and muscle instability which we have. The knowledge of tmj and even more so the real understanding and experience with this does matter here!
Will write more later.
LTC, I got the nightguard, but it's not much different from the one I bought. The only last molar crown which I have "gets stuck in it" so I'll call the dentist next week to adjust it.

[Now I have the flat plane on my denture top, and when I said to the new dentist , maybe this is good then since I don't know where my bite is and he said only if the plane is right on the top denture. I just don't know at this point, whats best or not.]
He does sound good to me. Give him some time; it took a long time to create your mess so he has to get some feel for what's going on. If he mentioned that the plane should be right, it's very good!

[I just don't know how they correct this all , if the jaws are not lining up.]
They usually do this on the "bow transfer" which is when they place a frame in your ears and let you bite, then tighten the screws to have the frame fixed. Your new dentist must know how to do it.
They can also let you bite on two wax horseshoes, and adjust the plane between them. This is what they do when making two dentures (if a person just has no teeth at all). In your case, with healthy tmj, I believe that just the first way should give good result.
Just tell your dentist that you are shifting from one side to the other and have no stability.

I don't see a chiro, will go soon to do the x-rays but not to crack the bones. I was thinking to go back to the osteo I saw two years ago. But I feel too tired to drive, deal with my insurance (pay deductible), and then once I will eat or sleep my body will be messed up again in a few minutes.
My last dentist is hoping that that anterior device (like an NTI) will stop my muscle loops. I didn't want to scare him away by my other symptoms. Let's see first how this will work.

[ Do you think your neck has anything to do with your bite? Or do you believe the answer is all in the teeth?]
The neck and the rest are very related to the bite, no doubt about it!
I strongly believe that if there were no serious injuries in someone's body (like surgeries, broken neck ;), hips or birth defects) the body can align itself. If the bite is off, it will surely move other parts out of alignment.
Not only I believe that in my case the teeth are the cause I can see it any time when I place the temps which make my jaw go forward: I hear the neck cracking within minutes. If I take them off, and place another set which causes other problems (like the jaw goes sideways) I will experience totally new symptoms again within minutes! I've done it hundred times in all these years (changing the symptoms in my neck, hips, shoulder height, feet turned outward, vision problems, ear pains, of course, what not!-- yah, even stomach problems. Sometimes feel that my bowels twist, then I am afraid that they will make a knot or so...)

You are very correct about the VDO. We do need the room and we do need the support.
Sorry, I was likely not clear with my chair example. I told it to someone and he didn't get it. The knees are our tmj's; the feet are the upper teeth, the floor is the lower jaw (teeth). What I meant is that the length of the muscles, like the length of the leg from the knee to the foot does not change. If it is forced to be "longer or shorter" b/c the teeth are longer or shorter the jaw either will be pushed up into the disk or will try to move forward trying to "stretch" normally there.
So basically, the jaw can move forward from the VDO too high and from the VDO too low (to a certain degree). But if there are no contacts in "easy to look places" it will still look for them sacrificing the rest. The main idea is that this the body is looking for the teeth and for stability; the jaw needs to relax when the teeth are touched. As I read, it happens 2,000 times a day when we need to swallow.

Yah, if we could open a business it might be a "new era in dentistry", ah?;)

[what color and styles are you guys hair] I am brown too, just got more gray hair in a few weeks this September. I hate those dentists for spoiling my look!! (gums, gray hair, ... - when it started I was just into the feel of "starting" a new life and feeling that I was still young and will have fun in my life. So instead -- 9 years of torture.)

Well, I am so slow, only had my breakfast today.





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