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There was some chatter a while back about the use of topical Spiro. I was able to find one post where it was officially given the thumbs-down. Are there any other reports out there from peolpe who have tried this?

Also, are there any males other than Joeh that are using Spiro internally? I have read all of Joeh's posts, and would like to see if anyone can add anything regarding the potential side-effects for men.
Hi,

YEs I am a male trying oral spiro. I think it's working. However, today I've actually got quite a sore chest! I have been reading about the side effects of this drug on men on the internet and it seems that they are relatively rare. I haven't read anywhere yet that it can cause sterility in men. Altho I ahve read it can cause impotence. I think you would have to take it for a really long time to suffer this sort of side effect.
I'm also a male who is on spironolactone (100mg/day). I have only been on it for 4 days, so it's way to early to say anything. But so far I haven't notice a difference, im still breaking out really bad. My face hasn't looked this bad in years! I'll post a progress update in 7 days.........


[B]joeh[/B], if your out there; how long were you on spiro before you were 100% clear and what side effects if any did you experience on the first 14 days or so using spiro? Thanks.
Grimey - Please do keep us informed as to how everything goes. How did you decide upon 100 mgs? Was this recommended by your endo or derm?

Joeh - It sounds like you are saying that the ONLY way spiro can be effective for acne is if it in fact has an adverse impact on your sex drive. Is this your general perception or did this notion come from your Doc? I'm hoping to be able to take a dose that's low enough to not have any undesirable anti-male side-effects, but high enough to be effective against acne. Do you think this is impossible?
thats how it starts out then your blemishes will then dry up and go away and your skin will be normal.well i started oct 5 of 2002 and by thanksgiving my skin was looking really good because my sister asked how i got my skin looking so good.check out transexual sites.....not the porn sites.....on the effect of spiro on male to female transexuals.a lot of transexuals are on between 150 mgs to 500 mgs of spiro daily and 7 mgs of premerin a day.if your under 20 ,100mgs of spiro wont turn you into a girl but might keep you boy like.im over 40 and no amount of hormones and anti-androgens will change my bone structure.it might make you steril and in little as 6 months but i think if i went off i think i still could produce androgens.it depends on the person so thats why you might want to clear your skin and save up 1200 dollars and get a smoothbeam laser treatments.i think on avg. they charge 300 dollars per treatment.well if your steril then you will be cured of acne.it might be great if you want to be a priest in the catholic church.i have had no bad side effects but you lose interest in sex and can't have sexual intercourse....thats it.thats why if you were under 20 and i was a doc i wouldnt prescribe it until i had a paper from your psyciatrist stating acne was causing great mental distress.if it wasnt for the impotant/steril thing it would be great for guys but it is suppressing the thing that is making you male....androgens aka male sex hormone aka testosterone.and unfortunately thats whats causing you acne.
LOL, OK Gentlemen, let's clear up a few misconceptions.

First of all, yes Spironolactone or any anti-androgen or DHT Inhibitor is going to effect your sex drive (male or female). This of course will vary depending on how much you are taking. If it's 50mg, probably won't notice a difference. If it's 100mg or more, you probably will. I was taking 150 - 200mg for almost 6 years and when I stopped, I noticed I had more of a desire, but it wasn't too big of a change.

Now some may get results faster than others. However it typically takes 3 months to truly see results when using anything (topical or oral) and up to 1 year to get the full benefits. Also, some of you are mixing up a few key terms:

[B]Anti-Androgen[/B] - An anti-androgen is anything that will [U]decrease your overall androgen production[/U] or will [U]decrease the amount of unbound androgens in your blood[/U]. Thus, Estrogen or a Hormonal Balancing Diet will act as anti-androgens. If you are doing this the dietary route, you won't experience a loss in sex drive. However, if you are relying on certain medications, like Estrogen, this can definately alter a man's sex drive because you aren't producing as much testosterone overall [U]plus[/U] there will be more estrogens in your system than usual, and estrogen is not the sex-drive hormone. ;-)

[B]DHT-Inhibitor[/B] - Now DHT is the super potent form of Testosterone. This is the Big guy and it's what's involved in androgenic alopecia (topical hair loss), hirsutism (excess body & facial hair), and of course acne. It has some positive things too, but if you are producing too much of this, especially in men, you are already on the road to Prostate Problems (men please don't fear this, handle it early on). This must be converted from Testosterone and requires a Type I or Type II enzyme to do this. The goal of a DHT inhibitor is to either [u]BLOCK DHT's effects [/u] on your sebaceous glands or to [U]STOP the conversion of DHT[/U] by inhibiting the neccessary enzyme(s). So a DHT inhibitor will be Spironolactone, Flutamide, Avodart, etc. These do not seriously castrate you, these are not permanent. As soon as you stop, your body will take all of that DHT or Testosterone that you've been [U]continuously [/U] producing and allow it to do it's job!!! So males that are past puberty, early 20s seems like a good period, should be able to safely take DHT-Inhibitors without any worry of stunting your growth.

Here's another little FYI about DHT-Inhibitors. Wether they are prescriptions or herbal supplements, they have a built in mechanism for balancing out your hormones. It seems that even though they are preventing your body's ability to utilize or produce DHT, they are also preventing your body from producing too much estrogen. DHT Inhibitors, prevent your body from naturally aromatizing (converting) Testosterone into Estrogen. So while you are blocking the bad effects of DHT, you are still producing Testosterone and should still have a naturally higher ratio of male hormones vs. female hormones. This is actually a good thing especially if you are prone to cancer, since estrogen feeds the growth of some forms!

If interested in Herbal* DHT Inhibitors the top ones are:
[B]Beta Sitosterol[/B] - Active ingredient in the below herbs. It's 3,000x more potent than Saw Palmetto (stronger than Avodart?)

[B]Saw Palmetto[/B] (Permixon)- equally as effective as Proscar / Finesteride. Some find that it's a good alternative to Spironolactone as well.

[B]Stinging Nettle[/B]

[B]Pygeum Africanum[/B]

* These will also decrease cholesterol levels which is great because our bodies use cholesterol to make these sometimes highly pesky steriod hormones!


HTH =)


P.S. I absolutely don't condone taking things without a prescription. If you are going to do this PLEASE make sure you get a [B]CBC[/B], [B]CMP[/B] and at least a [B]Liver Panel [/B] done every 3 - 4 months. If you find yourself feeling tired, you are taking too much. Of course there's always the natural alternatives that usually have less side effects associated with them.
I'm on my 12th day using 100mg of spiro and I'm significantly clearing up everywhere except my chin & forehead. Im getting TONS (to many to count) of tiny whiteheads and tiny zits all over my forehead. I'm also getting the same types of pimples on my chin but to a lesser extent. I'll probably have to add a topical to help combat these breakouts.

Spiro has eliminated all those painful pimples on my neck and scalp. My back is also clearing up nicely. I really haven't had any new pimple anywhere in about 4 days except for the ones I mention on my forehead & chin.... My skin is no longer oily and feels soft and smooth. My hair feels almost like silk and isn't greasy anymore. I also no longer have dandruff.


As for side effects the only ones I notice so far is a decrease in sexual interest, thirst and a increase in passing urine. I plan to be on spiro for only 6 months, hopefully by then my face will be 100% clear, so I can have some type of laser scar treatment done. I'm not really worried about growing boobs as this is a long term (approx. 1 year) side effect and is also a reversible side effect. But if I notice any boob growth at all, I will quit spiro immediately and give accutane another shot.


Geoff
Gimey,
You do have an excellent plan. However, it takes several months (at least 3) to a few years before your skin might be clear with spiro. Granted, the dosage does matter as well. My suggestion is that if spiro is working so well, and you think that it's affecting you negatively try reducing the dosage by 25 mg and see if those symptoms disappear.

If you are not using a topical (of any sort) at the moment, then you may want to to help combat those white heads. In time spiro may eliminate those as well, but from personal experience spiro is very good at eliminating most cystic acne. I don't know how old you are, you may grow out of this, but if not, accutane won't solve your problems either. If this is truly an imbalance, you may be fortunate enough to go a few months - few years from the effects of accutane, but as we know, some people have gone up to 5 rounds and still have acne. My thoughts are that you may want to try Beta-sitosterol next. This is much more potent than the other herbal DHT Inhibitors, and won't provide most side effects, including decreased libido & the male breast growth (due to it lacking the strength of other phytoestrogens). It alters our cholesterol levels, thus lowering our overall ability to produce steroid hormones & inhibits DHT conversion so itís something you might want to think about. [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=Search&DB=PubMed[/url]

[url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14652381[/url]

[url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12477490[/url]

[url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12092634[/url]

Oh yeah, and as a female, spiro didn't enhance my breast size. I was taking 200mg for several years along with BC and no such benefit, not to mention, I still wasn't clear!!! These androgens know how to fight dirty ;-/ The average amount for a female is 50mg to help fight acne and hirsutism, but I guess if I hadn't changed my diet I would have had to taken a Transgender male's dosage. Males must take 200mg - 600mg of Spironolactone to get their testosterone levels low enough to have such an effect as breast growth, decreased hair, etc.

So from what I've read (this is such a complex topic), Estrogen and/or other anti-androgens, not DHT Inhibitors, will [U]more[/U] likely have a stronger impact on producing temporary/reversible sterility. However if you continue over 2 - 3 years to take high enough doses of estrogen (beyond BC levels), the sterility and body changes may not be reversible. This is along the lines of how they are working on male birth control. Testosterone, Estrogen, and Progesterone applied in various combinations and doses are capable of making you temporarily sterile, but at the same time maintaining your libido and other physical characteristics. So one day....ya'll will be popping BC pills too =P


Best of luck and keep us updated!
[QUOTE=Grimey]I'm on my 12th day using 100mg of spiro and I'm significantly clearing up everywhere except my chin & forehead. Im getting TONS (to many to count) of tiny whiteheads and tiny zits all over my forehead. I'm also getting the same types of pimples on my chin but to a lesser extent. I'll probably have to add a topical to help combat these breakouts.

Spiro has eliminated all those painful pimples on my neck and scalp. My back is also clearing up nicely. I really haven't had any new pimple anywhere in about 4 days except for the ones I mention on my forehead & chin.... My skin is no longer oily and feels soft and smooth. My hair feels almost like silk and isn't greasy anymore. I also no longer have dandruff.


As for side effects the only ones I notice so far is a decrease in sexual interest, thirst and a increase in passing urine. I plan to be on spiro for only 6 months, hopefully by then my face will be 100% clear, so I can have some type of laser scar treatment done. I'm not really worried about growing boobs as this is a long term (approx. 1 year) side effect and is also a reversible side effect. But if I notice any boob growth at all, I will quit spiro immediately and give accutane another shot.


Geoff[/QUOTE]

Strange... I noticed that my dandruff went away with spiro too. Plus, a decrease in sexual interest as well. Good to hear it's helping you to some extent.
i know that aa drugs and diet work, i actually use it. The problem is that once u start it, u can no more get off of it. 1-2 week ago i tried to quit my drug, and the effects were so bad. i guess when my androgens were very low, androgen receptors got more sensitive to them. That's why it would be great to find something that acts on these receptors. i know that is what spiro does, but those folks it can make you steril, and i've heard also it stops working after some time. For how long u've been taking it, joeh?
Well I'm on my 25th day taking spiro and it's been working better than anything I've ever used. I'm not 100% clear but this is the best my skin has looked in a LONG time. Right now, I have 5 [I]SMALL [/I] zits on my face and 2 pimples on my back. I'm clear everywhere else and have remained that way for several days. I also haven't had any cysts since about the 5th day of using spiro.

I actually had a 6 day span without getting a single pimple anywhere. Prior to using spiro I couldn't go 6 hours without getting a new breakout, let alone 6 days! I'm also no longer experiencing any side effects at all. The minor side effects I was having earlier have subsided. I'll keep everyone posted.....


Geoff
Joeh, 2 questions for you:

1. Have you experience any side effects? (i.e. breast size increase, sterility (that you know of))
2. Can you eat anything you want while on spiro?
im on 100 mgs a day of spiro and 2.5 premerin....pregneat mare urin or estrogen from a horse.im over 40 so i wouldnt get much breast development.if your mom and sisters have large breast then you might get some breast development but it would go away when you stopped the drug.remember i dont think any male under 30 should be taking spiro or prem unless nothing else worked or acne was making there life unbearable and everything else has been tried.its say on the label to take with foods but i usually just take it when i get up.you get thirsty a lot but its no big deal.it calms you down a lot.i have no idea if im sterile or not.i dont want to stop taking spiro but when your clear your at greatest risk of becoming sterile.it surpresses your male sex hormone know as testosterone.if your under 30 you might try saw palmetto and get the spiro topical.i havnt had any real bad side effects.basicly do you want clear skin or sex.i cant have sex but i can still love girls.i cannot feel sexy because im not producing much sex hormone.this is what i have experenced.spiro should be a last resort for guys even after accutane for this reason.acne is caused by male hormone aka androgens and your sebasious glands being sensative too them.you might want to check out the so-called male anti-androgens.i have never had them and know they are much more expensive than spiro.spiro works wonders on a guys acne too but you stand a good chance of being sterile for life if on after 4 months.everybodys different so i dont know if i quit taking it i could have sex or not.i would rather have a social life over a sexual one.im sorry thats just me.
Joeh and co:

I have taken spiro internally for a few months. I stopped a while ago, cos I was getting tender breasts and I didn't think it was working much. However, I did extensive research before I took it (illegally) and I didn't find anything to say that it can cause sterility (unless you take it for years and years at a high dosage) It is prescribed to men for baldness too (altho somewhat reluctantly by doctors) . I don't think people should worry too much about its effects if they take it for no longer than 6 months . I think sweetjade has said a similar thing.
Spiro is still working great! Acne on my face is becoming scarce! The only type of acne I'm getting on my face are tiny ones that leave no red marks & are usually gone the next day. I have only 4 of these on my entire face right now. I also have about 5 pimples on my upper back, some are whiteheads, nothing really major though. These are the only areas I continue to get any sort of breakouts on a daily basis.

I know in my last post I said I wasn't experiencing any side-effects, but I can't deny it, spiro has definitely decreased my desire for sex. I'm sure if I had a GF I wouldn't be effected! I dunno know, It's just that I'm not thinking about sex & women every second like I used to. This is the only side effect. Will keep every1 posted......
Grimey: 100mgs. Altho i know u r supposed to wait for up to 6 months to see positive effects, I've a lot of people on this board received positive results within the first month. For any new treatment I try , I usually see results in the first month, so because a lack of any positive progress coupled with the aforementioned side effects , I decided to quit. Furthermore, I thought even if it did start working, I couldnt risk taking it for years and thus it wasn't a feasible long-term solution.
Hey all,
Someone asked what the root cause of our problems are and it's more than likely our livers. If our livers are incapable of properly filtering out our (excess) hormones or converting our hormones into other hormones, than we are screwed. For you men (and women) that find that your acne worsens after sex, it MAY be due to you having a deficiency in aromatase. This is the liver enzyme that converts testosterone into estrogen. So when you boost your levels from sex, your body gets overloaded and acne, etc ensues.

The other cause, which 90% of acne sufferers have is an [B]increased sensitivity[/B] to DHT and/or [B]increased hormone levels [/B] of DHT in the hair and/or sebaceous follicles. Once those follicles become sensitized, especially in terms of hair growth or alopecia, they are always sensitized no matter the amount of DHT. Now, someone once said that you don't get acne where you don't have pores, so if we eliminated body & facial hair follicles we may not get acne, anyone agree???

Alright, so the other thing to remember is that hormones wouldn't exist without [B]amino acids[/B], [B]proteins[/B] (Insulin), sugar-proteins or [B]glycoproteins[/B] (follicle stimulating hormone, lutienizing hormone, thyroid stimulating hormone, IGF-1) or [B]fats[/B] (steriod hormones, prostaglandins). So it's very important that we are getting good and diverse sources of nutrients in our bodies.

Our prefered fuel source is carbohydrates. If unavailable our body will utilize fats, if unavailable our body will utilize proteins. The problem is that our body needs protein to build from so using protein as a fuel isn't very wise. The end result though is always fat. In our diets, there's definately good and bad fats and we want to increase our good plant fats, while reducing our animal fats. This is important because of the way our body takes these nutrients and converts them into hormones:

Carbohydrates = Sugar = Fats = Cholesterol = Hormones

Fats = Cholesterol....

Proteins = Sugar = Fats....

Our body will take these fats (cholesterol) and create the following groups of steroid hormones:

Males: Progesterone ---> Testosterone (most of all) --> Estrogen

Females: Progesterone --->Testosterone --> Estrogen (most of all)

So, can you see how this can be problematic if we are consuming, too much refined food, too many (glycoprotein) hormone mimickers, or if our enzymes aren't functioning properly (which can be due to the lack of nutrients)?

High Testosterone levels in women will override the effects of estrogen and high estrogen levels in men will override the effects of testosterone. This isn't a big problem unless you are in the stages of development ages 8 - 20, or 23 (?). This is when having a severe hormonal imbalance can seriously screw with the way you develop. I got lucky in some ways, but not in others. So for women I would definately say take the spiro, take the birth control, change diet while in puberty in order to prevent some of these problems. For men...during puberty, the natural way is the best & safest way.


Cococola,
Beta Sitosterol is slowly becomming available. Just do a search and you will find several companies that sell this product. Currently I am taking Saw Palmetto at a dose of 1640mg - 3240mg. I have 3 bottles that I need to finish off so I'm just taking lots of it. Usually you don't absorb that amount and the [U]extract[/U] contains beta-sitosterol at 1mg/160mg of Saw Palmetto extract so under the normal "prescribed" Saw Palmetto dosages, men aren't getting a ton of this stuff (only 2mg of Beta sitosterol). Since I'm not taking the pure extract, I'm hoping that I may be getting closer to 5mg or more beta sitosterol. However, keep in mind that only 5% of beta sitosterol is absorbed so from a 100mg dosage, you would only get 5mg, which is generally enough to do the trick. So, when they run out, if I haven't seen a decrease in body hair (spiro was good for this), then I will move on to beta sitosterol.

Plant sterols are the natural way to do things right and we would get more of these NATURALLY if we ate plenty of plants. LOL, but since our diets are based more on (refined) grains and animal proteins instead of fruits and vegetables this is probably why we have a lot of health issues now. I am also taking the liver healer glutathione (100mg) once day. It is supposed to help induce cell death, hopefully meaning faster healing and exfoilation for my skin and it helps reduce IGF-1 levels (can boost DHT). Been doing this for less than 2 weeks now, but will update if anything postive occurs.

Euro,
Topical Spironolactone has been around for wow...maybe the past 20 years as well. You can search for results on pubmed, which provides empirically validated peer-reviewed scientfic studies for the skeptics. What I remember is that it didn't cause any topical irritation and that most people improved from it's use. I personally am interested in this as well because I'm always looking for ways to get rid of unwanted hair and if this topically would do that, it would be awesome. Of course, my goal is to spend as little money as possible so I will see what I can do internally with the sterols. Now there are two formulas. One is more of a cream and the other is more of a lotion. If you do a search, I should have the ingredients for both posted somewhere on here.

Oh yeah and usually other oral DHT inhibitors can work externally. Beta sitosterol is rumored to be more effective topically, but I don't know if this is only for hair growth.

Gotta get some sleep, but I hope all of you are doing well =)
[QUOTE=Grimey]On day 44 - my skin is back to looking like crap! I've been breaking out terribly for like the past 5 days. I've even gotten some cysts on my chin, scalp & back.

There are some signs that spiro is still working; other areas of my body have remained clear. Also my skin is still soft and isn't oily at all. I dunno what can be causing these pimples. A week ago I was experiencing my clearest skin ever.... I guess I'll try using an oral antibiotic, maybe it might help a little.

How's every1 else's progress w/ spiro going?[/QUOTE]

Oh Grimey, I am so sorry to hear about the breakout! It seemed like things were going so well for a while. I wonder what that could be??? I broke out too the other day a bit on my chin and jawline, that was my first breakout from being on spiro since March. It wasn't too bad, but I think it could have been because I started the pill.

I wonder what are the factors causing this breakout? Maybe we need to be on it longer to see more long term effects??? I dunno, but whatever it is, I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.
Here's an update with my spiro usage -- I have continued on 50/mg day spiro, along with topical tazorac. This combination has been working great for me, at least as far as skin improvement. I have experienced some side effects, the most prominent being physical fatigue. I am now tinkering with reducing the spiro dosage to see if that helps.





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