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Hi, I sincerely hope that you give this thread a chance and read until the end i am sure you will be glad you did.Thankyou.

This is my first post at healthboards, however i have been posting around the web for years, and have fully researched most of the current ideas about acne-genesis. I am training to (possibly) end up as a dermatologist and specialise in acne. I have also suffered from relatively sever acne for 9 years.

Firstly we are all in the same boat, we have all read about so many different regimes, drugs, supplements and alternative therapies. Secondly sweetjade is very intelligent and i recommend you check out many of her posts, if you want to skip doing the research for yourself.

I think there are two routes to take when it comes to treating acne, 1: treating the cause (liver, bowel, renal, etc detoxification) and 2: treating the symptoms.

Most 'alternative' therapies aim at the former, while orthodox medicine aims primarily at the latter. Most posts that you read will put more emphisis on the former. I argue that in diseases such as acne, the symptoms take on a special importance that doesn't exsist in many other conditions (that involve subtle hormonal and metabolic disorders).

What i mean is that the symptoms generate a certain level psychological distress that leads to the patient striving to find a cure. This primarily occurs during adolesance when the psyche is developing and is very vunerable, many patients end up with a degree of BDD (body-dysmorphic disorder). This is caused by a years of percieving themselves in a bad light, and at the end of the day our perceptions of reality IS our reality.

It is also true that once we believe something about our reality, (and ourselves) that thing will manifest, which provides evidence for our beliefs and so our beliefs get stronger. Thus it is a feed forward loop.

So as we all know acute stress leads to flare-ups, and chronic distess leads to adrenal exhaustion, immune disfunction, and hormonal imbalance. My point is that; it IS very important to treat the cause of acne, that is to embark on a long term strategy to clean up your body, but it is equally important to take care of the symptoms of acne. Because if we have less (or no) symptoms, then we aren't so stressed, and overtime our perception of ourselves changes and we subconsciously start to think of our selves as 'aperson who doesn't have (or who has very little) acne' this is our perception and thus it becomes our reality.

This may all sound a bit weird but read any psychological degree textbook, if you want to findout about the power our self-image has on our physical bodies.

Thus if we simply try to treat the cause of acne (which may take many years) and negate the symptoms (which will be with us for a long time while we are treating the cause) then we will either give up the treatment (as it is getting no results) or get increasingly distressed that we look so bad.

So..I believe that acne suseptibility is many humans (it is an unwanted modern-day manifestation of genetic systems that are in many of us but not all of us (known as genetic polymorphisms). These genetic systems may have confirred advantages to our ancestors but today give rise to diseases such as acne). These genetic systems are activated by long-term modern (western) environmental circumstances, (diet, background dioxins, pollution, stress) and this gives rise to SUBTLE metabolic and hormonal variations (see posts by SWEETJADE for details on the variations).

(NB, this process is the cause of many chronic diseases of the western world, such as the unwanted activation of a anzyme called ACE, that gave a advantage to our ancestors, but in this modern western world, it causes heart failure...which is why heart failure is treated with ACE inhibitors).

My point is that trying to treat the cause is a very hard task when we live in this western world, we have to breath the air, eat the food, and experience the life. therefore these genetic systems will always be activated, just by living in this western environment (this is called 'TOXIC- ENVIRONMENT theory' and it is talked about a bit in the film 'supersize me')

Also what is causation anyway? many people say bacteria causes acne, NO IT DOESNT, hormone imbalance causes acne, NO IT DOESNT, diet causes acne, NO IT DOESNT our genetic make-up causes acne.....Do you see what i mean.

I mean we CAN do our best to eat a healthy diet, that suits us (don't eat foods that break us out) avoid stress etc BUT we should NOT forget about the symptoms. Orthodox medicine has developed within the western world it is designed to meet its needs, we shouldn't dismiss it.

Finally my suggestions for maintaining clear skin (which i think is the best we can do unless we undertake a lifesyle that is very difficult if we want to live in the western world. So until we evolve to loose these unnessessary genetic systems or we get better at genetic engineering, we must look at want has been proven in scientific studies to work and we must take them all (or many of them).

1.THERAPIES THAT BEEN PROVEN (and what i take.. i am now maintained virtually clear and easily controlled).


Vitamin B5.... (more than 5g per day, i take 6g per day, divided)
Zinc ............(80mg per day...plus copper 2mg per day)
Guggul..........(25mg guggulsterones 2 or 3 times per day)
Red and Blue Lamp (dermulux) .....(15min once or twice per day)
minocycline.....(100mg per day....THIS DOES WORK IF TAKEN
AT THE SAME TIME EVERY DAY, ON AN EMPTY STOMACH NOT WITH ANY OTHER SUPPLEMENTS. ALSO WHILE TAKING IT, PRO-BIOTICS (8BILLION PER DAY) SHOULD BE TAKEN AND GRAPEFRUIT SEED EXTRACT SHOULD BE USED (INTERNALLY; 20 DROPS IN WATER 3 TIMES PER DAY, AND EXTERNALLY; MIX 5 DROPS INTO WASH TWICE PER DAY). AND VITAMIN C (2-3G PER DAY). The probiotics replenish gut bacteria, the grapefruit seed extract kills any yeast (and p-acnes) and the vitamin c prevents minocline induced tissue stains.

TRETINOIN......(once (or twice occasionally) per evening, use sunscreen )
Benzoyl peroxide.....(once per day, not with tretinoin, use enough...see
*********..'dans regime')

Wash...Should contain Salicylic acid (proven) and no sodium lauryl (laureth) sulphate..in other words it won't foam up..it should be a cream wash


EVERYTHING i have just above has scientific studies to prove they work (check pub-med), so when taken together they almost guarantee that you will clear up. If you have very severe acne use accutane first to start you on a clean slate, and then remember not to use tretinoin for 6 months after finishing.


2.OTHER THERAPIES BASED ON SCIENTIFIC STUDIES:

A study on the drug, Zileuton (A LOX-5 inhibitor) showed that it is effective against the inflammatory component of acne, but you can not buy this drug yet, so there are many natural LOX-5 inhibitors, such as Tumeric and Boswellic acid. These must be taken for about a month and at relatively high dosage (Tumeric about 5 times the dose on the back).

Another option is Devil's claw, which as anti-inflammatory actions similar to steroids, but without steroids, again a high dose and long term use. White willow bark is a natural aspirin that can reduce inflammation as well. Bromalein is an enzyme from pineapple that also reduces inflammation.

Obviously you should also be taking evening primrose, flaxseed oil AND borage oil, not either or.

B-complex, Niacin, vitamin B-6 and saw palmetto all help balance hormones.

MSM (8g per day, divided) removes toxins from skin cells.

St Johns wort is a natural 'selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitor, it reduces depression, and anxiety associated with acne, and may also help treat body dysmorphic disorder.

Acne-tab and Zenmed are effective (though the latter should be used in an on-off fashion)

3.THERAPIES TO TREAT THE CAUSE

The last acne solution...leo ceisen (i think thats his name)
Other rediculously strict dietary regimes....(if you want to do this thats fine, i have tried them all and none of them got rid of the symptoms they just made me depressed)

Liver lipotrophic formulaes....Very useful to keep the liver performing well (should include high dose milk thistle, inositol and dandelion)





In conclusion i think that doing all the proven therapies will keep your acne under control, and you can add in some of the second therapies if you want.The third set of therapies are ones that will help treat the cause, these can be added as well but they wont help with symptoms probably for a long time.

Any treatments that are undertaken should be done so with,the background of a healthy diet, i.e stick to a predominantly ayevedic (pitta constitution diet...research this if you dont know what im talking about, or ask me and ill fill you in), this ISNOT an extreame diet, (you're allowed ice cream)

Anyway i hope this has been useful, any questions dont hessitate to ask...thank you for your time.

mike (kkpb7825)
There are some down right dangerous practises recommended in this thread and I am doing this to solely protect those who know no better when prescribing themselves treatments. Just because you can purchase something over the counter does not make it safe.

[i]This is my first post at healthboards, however i have been posting around the web for years, and have fully researched most of the current ideas about acne-genesis. I am training to (possibly) end up as a dermatologist and specialise in acne. I have also suffered from relatively sever acne for 9 years.[/i]

Re- google - search :)

[i]
Firstly we are all in the same boat, we have all read about so many different regimes, drugs, supplements and alternative therapies. Secondly sweetjade is very intelligent and i recommend you check out many of her posts, if you want to skip doing the research for yourself. [/i]

She is without doubt a kind person however she advises avoiding practically all food groups and adopting a completely unnatural diet containing no - for one - saturated fat amongst other essential and natural healthy foods on equivocal or plain flawed evidence.*

*I am not up to date on the current dietary beliefs :jester:

[i]

What i mean is that the symptoms generate a certain level psychological distress that leads to the patient striving to find a cure. This primarily occurs during adolesance when the psyche is developing and is very vunerable, many patients end up with a degree of BDD (body-dysmorphic disorder). This is caused by a years of percieving themselves in a bad light, and at the end of the day our perceptions of reality IS our reality.
[/i]

ok, yes, true

[i]

It is also true that once we believe something about our reality, (and ourselves) that thing will manifest, which provides evidence for our beliefs and so our beliefs get stronger. Thus it is a feed forward loop.

So as we all know acute stress leads to flare-ups, and chronic distess leads to adrenal exhaustion, immune disfunction, and hormonal imbalance. [b]My point is that; it IS very important to treat the cause of acne, that is to embark on a long term strategy to clean up your body,[/b] but it is equally important to take care of the symptoms of acne. Because if we have less (or no) symptoms, then we aren't so stressed, and overtime our perception of ourselves changes and we subconsciously start to think of our selves as 'aperson who doesn't have (or who has very little) acne' this is our perception and thus it becomes our reality. [/i]

All take note, it is vital to [b] Clean up your body [/b]

next...

[i]
(NB, this process is the cause of many chronic diseases of the western world, such as the unwanted activation of a anzyme called ACE, that gave a advantage to our ancestors, but in this modern western world, it causes heart failure...which is why heart failure is treated with ACE inhibitors).
[/i]

What kind of logic is that? how can something advantageous to us in the past cause heart failure today? bubijsgdsg?

[i]

Also what is causation anyway? many people say bacteria causes acne, NO IT DOESNT, hormone imbalance causes acne, NO IT DOESNT, diet causes acne, NO IT DOESNT our genetic make-up causes acne.....Do you see what i mean.
[/i]

yeah, far out man!

[i]
I mean we CAN do our best to eat a healthy diet, that suits us (don't eat foods that break us out) avoid stress etc BUT we should NOT forget about the symptoms. Orthodox medicine has developed within the western world it is designed to meet its needs, we shouldn't dismiss it.
[/i]

its the other way around, you have to eat enough foods that keeps skin healthy such as animal fat rich in natural fat soluble vitamins A, E, etc not detrimental artificial vitamins like ascorbic acid or pantethenic acid, or vegetable based 'bio-unavailable' vitamins like beta carotene. Lard, beef tallow, fatty lamb - all the tasty stuff, butter - if you tolerate dairy.

[i]
Finally my suggestions for maintaining clear skin (which i think is the best we can do unless we undertake a lifesyle that is very difficult if we want to live in the western world. So until we evolve to or we get better at genetic engineering, we must look at want has been proven in scientific studies to work and we must take them all (or many of them).
[/i]


I assume you mean "lose"
Yes, the human body has far too many redundant features, I mean what use are toes? and why have ears, surely its better to just have holes in the sides of our heads?

[i]
1.THERAPIES THAT BEEN PROVEN (and what i take.. i am now maintained virtually clear and easily controlled).
[/i]

Proven to do what? because it isnít help acne -

[i]
Vitamin B5.... (more than 5g per day, i take 6g per day, divided)
[/i]
the B5 study is one by a whacky chinese guy Lit-Hung Leung in a journal unrecognised medically. B5 is pantothenic acid, the rda is about 5mg. The mechanism for action is to cure a deficiency of coemzyme q110, So why not just take coemzyme q10- reason, the theory is made up, its easy to convince people with no knowledge of the subject anything you like, and even easier to convince people who 'think' they have knowledge of the subject. Yes is may work but it is not because of the theoretical mechanism, and more importantly B5 is an acid, if you take such huge amounts of it say goodbye to your bones because the calcium is what the body will be using to try and lower the ph or your digestive system.

[i]
Zinc ............(80mg per day...plus copper 2mg per day)
[/i]

Say hello to prostate cancer amongst others things

[i]
Guggul..........(25mg guggulsterones 2 or 3 times per day)
Red and Blue Lamp (dermulux) .....(15min once or twice per day)
minocycline.....(100mg per day....THIS DOES WORK IF TAKEN
AT THE SAME TIME EVERY DAY, ON AN EMPTY STOMACH NOT WITH ANY OTHER SUPPLEMENTS. ALSO WHILE TAKING IT, PRO-BIOTICS (8BILLION PER DAY) SHOULD BE TAKEN AND GRAPEFRUIT SEED EXTRACT SHOULD BE USED (INTERNALLY; 20 DROPS IN WATER 3 TIMES PER DAY, AND EXTERNALLY; MIX 5 DROPS INTO WASH TWICE PER DAY). AND VITAMIN C (2-3G PER DAY). The probiotics replenish gut bacteria, the grapefruit seed extract kills any yeast (and p-acnes) and the vitamin c prevents minocline induced tissue stains.

TRETINOIN......(once (or twice occasionally) per evening, use sunscreen )
Benzoyl peroxide.....(once per day, not with tretinoin, use enough...see
*********..'dans regime')
[/i]

Now lets recall the quote, it is vital to [b] Clean up your body [/b]

Clean up your bodly be taking huge quantities of what are nothing more than isolated artificial chemicals. Hello irony, Goodbye health.

[i]
EVERYTHING i have just above has scientific studies to prove they work (check pub-med), ....
[/i]

Again this is dubious.

[i]
2.OTHER THERAPIES BASED ON SCIENTIFIC STUDIES:

A study on the drug, Zileuton (A LOX-5 inhibitor) showed that it is effective against the inflammatory component of acne, but you can not buy this drug yet, so there are many natural LOX-5 inhibitors, such as Tumeric and Boswellic acid. These must be taken for about a month and at relatively high dosage (Tumeric about 5 times the dose on the back).
[/i]

c.b.a



[i]
Obviously you should also be taking evening primrose, flaxseed oil AND borage oil, not either or.
[/i]

Oh yes OBVIOUSLY! (?)
[i]

B-complex, Niacin, vitamin B-6 and saw palmetto all help balance hormones.

[/i]

Some more useless isolated artificially chemicals used librally shouldn't hurt (or help) saw palmetto esspecially for guys who want to be a bit more femanine (flax oil too)

cba to comment much more...

[i]The last acne solution...leo ceisen (i think thats his name)
Other rediculously strict dietary regimes....(if you want to do this thats fine, i have tried them all and none of them got rid of the symptoms they just made me depressed) [/i]

I wonder what regimes you tried, I bet they were acne specific nonsense ones.

[i]
Liver lipotrophic formulaes....Very useful to keep the liver performing well (should include high dose milk thistle, inositol and dandelion)
[/i]

If you want a good liver eat enough meat and fat.

[i]
In conclusion i think that doing all the proven therapies will keep your acne under control,
[/i]
if not kill you first

[i]
Any treatments that are undertaken should be done so with,the background of a healthy diet, i.e stick to a predominantly ayevedic (pitta constitution diet...research this if you dont know what im talking about, or ask me and ill fill you in), this ISNOT an extreame diet, (you're allowed ice cream)
[/i]

Now this does explain a lot, I quote

"The word Ayurveda comes from two Sanskrit words - Ayur meaning life, and Veda meaning knowledge. This traditional Indian life science is the oldest form of medicine known to man; its guiding principles are said to have been handed down from the Hindu gods, and written texts date back 3500 years. "

I leave with that, from what I can see its an all vegetarian diet with a load of herbs thrown in. Not something any human should eat.


Do yourself a favour, drop the vegetarian nonesense, buy nourishing traditions or Neanderthin or Life Without Bread by Christian Allan and Wolfgang Lutz, or even Dr. Atkin's New Diet Revolution (and skip the first 2 weeks) drop the meds and vitamins that are not working and fix your acne and establish optimum health with proper nutrition, AT LEAST TRY. Listen to information FROM A REAL SCIENTIST, not me and not this budding-megavitamin-ologist.
[I]2. nobody should read a post like this one and immediately do what it says without first researching it themselves. no offense to kkpb, but this person could be a complete wackjob who doesn't take any of the pills that he recommends and really works as a cashier at McDonalds[/I].

:) ...lol...You ARE TOTALLY right (not that i work as a cashier in mc donalds lol) but that people should research this for themselves...that is EXACTLY what i am saying, i totally agree with you. That is why this post is called 'SCIENTIFIC MAINTENANCE' because EVERYTHING has scientific proof and so it CAN be researched and you dont have to just take my word for it.

in fact you should be commended , because the more research that is done the more ideas that we have and the better it is for all of us...p.s. i actually work as a training doctor (hoping of specialising in dermatology) in guys and st-thomas's hospital in London, although there is a mac-donalds literally built onto the actual hospital, which i think is kind of ironic!

[I]3. It really bugs me how he says that you should take all this natural vitamins, eat this healthy diet, yet to also take accutane. [/I]

I think i wasn't clear enough. I don't think people should take accutane unless they are very severe. Because i have been on two courses of it, and it certainly isn't pleasant. But IT WORKS. it works better and faster than any other treatment, drug, process, diet, herb or system on the planet. And when you've tried everything and you are on the verge of literally killing youself (as many people are due to their BDD) then its worth it, even if you do get some dryness and muscle ache. And you dont need to take any other therapy when your on accutane.

My point was that if you are severe then the symptoms need to be cleared rapidly to avoid BDD, depression, etc so that you can give time for the diet etc to work. most people won't need to go on accutane.

[I]4. When reading his post, notice that he does take minocycline among all the other pills, which happens to be one of the drugs that many doctors recommend for acne. That's what is most likely keeping him acne-free.[/I]

I can see why you may think that but it isn't the case. You see this is my third course of minocycline (i have also been on oxytetracycline) this time around i am a year into the course. After the first few months my acne started to get worse again, my dermatologist recommended either lymecycline or another course of isotretinoin (accutane) which i wasn't keen on. So then i thought...

I was already on a healthy diet plan, and had tried all the proven alternatives (that i have mentioned in my original post) but i hadn't tried all the proven therapies AT THE SAME TIME. (NB i cannot under-estimate the importance of using grape fruit seed extract (look it up on pubmed in reference to treating the super-bacterium; MRSA) both orally and mixed in with wash, as this kills any candida resulting from the minocycline and prevents development of antibiotic resistance).

I only take about 4 of the proven therapies i mentioned (and i have cut down on my initial dose) and one of the therapies is the light box. Once i started on them, my skin cleared. Its science not speculation. But you DEFINATELY should research them all first that is what i want, that is the whole point of this thread.

[I]And one final thing:
"Also what is causation anyway? many people say bacteria causes acne, NO IT DOESNT, hormone imbalance causes acne, NO IT DOESNT, diet causes acne, NO IT DOESNT our genetic make-up causes acne.....Do you see what i mean."

Hormonal imbalance is part of our genetic make-up as well as other factors.
If bacteria doesn't cause acne, then how are so many doctors "tricked" to think that that is a major factor AND why does he use salacylic acid and benzoyl peroxide every day??? (both are proven to kill BACTERIA)[/I]

This is a complicated philosohical point, that is difficult to summarize. My point was that Bacteria does cause acne, but only if there is a hormone imbalance. The hormone imbalance is CAUSED by a mixture of diet, environment (toxin, stress etc) and genetics. I was trying to point out that it is quite meaningless the say that it is better to 'treat the cause and not the symptoms' because the cause is mult-layered.

Bacteria wont cause acne without a hormonal imbalance (increased sebum etc), there wont be a hormonal imbalance without the bad diet, or the genetic make up. The genetic make-up is impossible to cure, the environment is very difficult to change (TOXIC ENVIRONMENT THEORY) (unless we move to the north pole), the diet is fairly hard, but not impossible (but it takes along time), the hormone imbalance is not so long, and the bacteria is quick and easy. SO it is a good idea to try to work on all (except genetic and environment) the levels.

So yes, kill the bacteria, (minocycline, salicylic acid, Bp,tea tree oil, grape-fruit seed extract, red and blue light etc) reduce the sebum (guggu, B5), reduce the hormone imbalance (evening primrose, flax, borage, saw palmetto, zinc, DIET etc), but make sure that you dont neglect the symptoms, which have a special importance in acne, (BDD, anxiety, stress depression worsening symptoms, suicide etc). Work on ALL levels, not just the 'cause'!

Thank you for your post portrgirl, i made me clarify things for myself, please post again if you spot anything else that needs clarification.

gotta go, by boss is shouting at me to clean the fat from the chip fryer

mike
(kkpb)





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