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I'll jump in here...by the way, howard, I hope you are doing better...remember, it does take the brain some time to recover from benzo use...been there, done that too!

No patience, addiction is really a misunderstood term. Addiction is a combo of physical dependancy along with social and behavioral issues. Most addictive drugs have the ability to create euphorias at higher doses. Higher doses of benzos like klonopin usually will simply put one to sleep. Not much in the euphoria dept there.

I commonly tell people benzos are addictive, but sometimes I need to clarify that to some people. Benzos create sometimes huge physical dependancy. Physical dependancy in itself is NOT addiction. True "addiction" is a behavior, driven by various things, but mainly a behavior.

For example, even if one kicks the cocaine habit physically (no more withdrawals), the old way of behavior (liking or being drawn to the euphoric feelings or the people involved in the drug circles) tends to be what is hard to fight....and sometimes it leads back to the old habit again. But simply getting sick if one skips a klonopin or trys to get off is not addiction...it's physical dependancy.

Klonopin and other benzos have high potential of dependancy and tolerance. How fast these develop is varied by dosage, type of benzo, how often it is taken, personal chemistry, etc. Also, withdrawal type symptoms can linger for months to years depending during the phase after physical withdrawal, called the recovery phase. I read that benzos are exclusive to having the longest recovery period of any drug, illegal or legal! Unfortunately, nobody takes them seriously, usually the cocaine addicts, junkies and alcoholics get all the attention! I guess it's because the effects of benzos vary and sometimes are not even recognized as a culprit because of prior conditions or simply because they are all nice-and-cozy legal drugs...

Look up the free online Ashton Manual. It's pretty long and it goes into alot of explanation about benzos. The woman who wrote it, Professor Heather Ashton in the 1980's, ran a clinic in the UK for benzo patients.

Occassional (not daily) and lower doses may help avoid dependancy in most (not all) cases.

Also, no cold turkey on a benzo as sometimes seizures can result.
[QUOTE=Jennita]I'll jump in here...by the way, howard, I hope you are doing better...remember, it does take the brain some time to recover from benzo use...been there, done that too!

No patience, addiction is really a misunderstood term. Addiction is a combo of physical dependancy along with social and behavioral issues. Most addictive drugs have the ability to create euphorias at higher doses. Higher doses of benzos like klonopin usually will simply put one to sleep. Not much in the euphoria dept there.

I commonly tell people benzos are addictive, but sometimes I need to clarify that to some people. Benzos create sometimes huge physical dependancy. Physical dependancy in itself is NOT addiction. True "addiction" is a behavior, driven by various things, but mainly a behavior.

For example, even if one kicks the cocaine habit physically (no more withdrawals), the old way of behavior (liking or being drawn to the euphoric feelings or the people involved in the drug circles) tends to be what is hard to fight....and sometimes it leads back to the old habit again. But simply getting sick if one skips a klonopin or trys to get off is not addiction...it's physical dependancy.

Klonopin and other benzos have high potential of dependancy and tolerance. How fast these develop is varied by dosage, type of benzo, how often it is taken, personal chemistry, etc. Also, withdrawal type symptoms can linger for months to years depending during the phase after physical withdrawal, called the recovery phase. I read that benzos are exclusive to having the longest recovery period of any drug, illegal or legal! Unfortunately, nobody takes them seriously, usually the cocaine addicts, junkies and alcoholics get all the attention! I guess it's because the effects of benzos vary and sometimes are not even recognized as a culprit because of prior conditions or simply because they are all nice-and-cozy legal drugs...

Look up the free online Ashton Manual. It's pretty long and it goes into alot of explanation about benzos. The woman who wrote it, Professor Heather Ashton in the 1980's, ran a clinic in the UK for benzo patients.

Occassional (not daily) and lower doses may help avoid dependancy in most (not all) cases.

Also, no cold turkey on a benzo as sometimes seizures can result.[/QUOTE]
thanks for the info very helpful at least now idont feel like an idiot theyve just helped me tremendously i couldnt even go anywhere before taking these but then again i dont want to go through all this pyshological crap again thanks so much kelleigh
Jennita,

I am afraid I relate to Mic and the guy`s lyrics. My pills were a shelter for me. They were my "little helper." And from June to October of last year, I really did not know how many I was taking. I loved to take a Xanax bar, big dose, 2 mgs, about 6 p.m. and sleep undisturbed, wake up 12 hours later. And I drank with them too. That song makes me said while motivating me. I listen to it from time to time. And I was a drug recepticle in my late teens and early 20s. When first prescribed benzos I was under some pretty serious stress and symptoms were manifesting. I really do not relate to the pure accidental addict that was prescibed benzos for some simple muscle twitch or something then stayed at the same dose for 8 or 10 years. I developed tolerance quick. My biggest complaint is that I was not warned of the extent of the withdrawal syndromes, had I, I would never have started benzos. But I had eaten blue Valiums like candy when I was young along with whatever else happened to be available and never had any benzo specific problems that I can recall. BUT, as to know, I got the discipline to taper, and that is good. It is great hearing you are athletic. I think more exercise will do me good, have gotten slack on my walks, will kick them back up this weekend.

Yep, makes sense, stress weakens the immune system, but I am working on stress reduction. You will see a victory here my friend, no matter the cost, and I think you will be here to rejoice with me. :)
[QUOTE=howard678]Jennita,

I am afraid I relate to Mic and the guy`s lyrics. My pills were a shelter for me. They were my "little helper." And from June to October of last year, I really did not know how many I was taking. I loved to take a Xanax bar, big dose, 2 mgs, about 6 p.m. and sleep undisturbed, wake up 12 hours later. And I drank with them too. That song makes me said while motivating me. I listen to it from time to time. And I was a drug recepticle in my late teens and early 20s. When first prescribed benzos I was under some pretty serious stress and symptoms were manifesting. I really do not relate to the pure accidental addict that was prescibed benzos for some simple muscle twitch or something then stayed at the same dose for 8 or 10 years. I developed tolerance quick. My biggest complaint is that I was not warned of the extent of the withdrawal syndromes, had I, I would never have started benzos. But I had eaten blue Valiums like candy when I was young along with whatever else happened to be available and never had any benzo specific problems that I can recall. BUT, as to know, I got the discipline to taper, and that is good. It is great hearing you are athletic. I think more exercise will do me good, have gotten slack on my walks, will kick them back up this weekend.

Yep, makes sense, stress weakens the immune system, but I am working on stress reduction. You will see a victory here my friend, no matter the cost, and I think you will be here to rejoice with me. :)[/QUOTE]

Yes, I will be here rejoicing! :)

Wow, it takes guts to admit all those things you did. I can see why then, you can't relate to most of the people in those support groups since most of them are accidental addicts....they are probably have alot more anger issues about it than you do, and I know sometimes they can go a bit too far with it.....deep down you are taking some of the blame yourself because of your past behavior...the accidental addicts don't, and for good reason.

I think you are being a little hard on yourself and don't realize that your past is not to blame here. Yes, you did something very unwise and dangerous in doing drugs when you were young! But that does not excuse what the doctors did to you in later years by prescribing benzos to you. Because whether or not you did drugs in the past, those drugs should not have been prescribed to you at all, or to anyone for that matter. Yep, I'm one of those people who thinks that benzos have their place in hospital/emergency/anesthetic settings only (their original intent) and that's about it....never should they have reached prescription drug status.

But, then again, I am one of the accidental addicts, so my view is different than yours. I know I had no blame, other than trusting doctors and being a good patient. My past involves no drugs, as I never understood it, really. I prefer real life, not a fake one. Fake ones have no meaning and the real world is always going to be there whether you like it or not, right? As far as alcohol, I tried it but really hated the taste. Plus, I got a bit tipsy and also didn't like the feeling...a little out of control....I like being in control of myself I guess.

But like I said; this is really not your fault either! Your past is not relevant because they also prescribe these pills to innocents like me, and I had a terrible time with tolerance and getting off of them....if my past was relevant, it should have been a different story, right? You get what I'm saying?

Doctors love to blame the patient when their drugs go wrong, you are a perfect example. But where is my blame? I ended up just like you with these drug, but without the drug past. Now, true, I didn't drink with my pills....but guess what? One night out of desperation, I actually did! Yes, me, Ms. "I hate the way alcohol tastes". Why? because it got me a few hours sleep.

I didn't do it again because I realized the next day what was happening and didn't like it. Although I admit, during my worst, sleepless withdrawals, I wondered if I drank some alcohol, would I go to sleep?......sometimes, my husband even would say, maybe I should try it (I wouldn't sleep for days on end and he felt sorry for me). But usually, I'd say to him only if I go one more night without any sleep at all...then thankfully, that night I would get a few hours...so I staved it off long enough to actually avoid using the alcohol.

So as they say, where there is benzos, alcohol is not far behind, even for non-drinkers like me.

The thing is, alcohol will boost the effects of benzos when they start to poop out on you. Some non-drinkers had taken it up during tolerance. One woman in the support group said that she met a doctor who outright admitted that benzos were really just concentrated "alcohol in a pill"....so if a doctor thinks benzos are ok then he is saying (whether he knows it or not) that daily drinking is an ok thing to do.

Now, I remember the measure of comparison was around 1 mg. Ativan=4 oz pure gin. So my daily dose was 8 oz. of gin. This was given to someone who didn't like alcohol...how ironic!

As you can see, the accidental addict is usually no better off than you, howard, when it comes to benzos.

So, I have to insist you do NOT blame yourself for any of this. Your past, although risky, is ancient history and would probably not make a difference in your current situation(as my past did not make a difference either!)
No patience,

Be aware that Trazadone can also lose it's effectiveness over time and also has a withdrawal syndrome. Using it to get over a rough time right now is fine as long as it is doing it's job, but as soon as you feel better, I'd start thinking of tapering it...a nice, slow one, slower even than your doctor recommeds for good measure.

But I am glad for now you are getting some relief while you rid yourself of your former pills. Someday, I am sure you will get off all pills for good. Take it one day at a time; it's not a race but you can make it to the finish line and that's what's important! :wave:

Deeandees,

Don't worry....I know that is hard to do when you simply cannot sleep at all. I've been there and I can tell you, natural sleep will come back. It doesn't come back all at once, and sometimes is irregular for awhile. I remember some of my first sleeps after quitting my benzo as being very light and short....I could hear everything around me, yet I was extremely relaxed. When I would wake, I felt a bit refreshed. Sometimes I would be dreaming....dreaming was a big clue I had actually dosed off because sometimes I wasn't sure!! But the sleeps usually only lasted a short while....sometimes, as little as 10-15 minutes!

But eventually, those minutes became a half-hour; the half-hour became hours, etc.; going without alot of sleep for days turned into sleeping some everyday. Inbetween, I'd have a full night here and there. There was no specific pattern to predict.

It's a process which takes some time. You could go with the Trazadone, if it gets too tough, but it's always' best to let the brain do it's thing in it's own time. If you do take Trazadone, it should start at 50 mgs. from what I've heard, and 100 is average. I would be leary of anything above that since you want to not develop a dependance or tolerance to it.

Good luck to you; I know what you are going through and it's horrible to say the least....
:[QUOTE=Jennita]No patience,

Be aware that Trazadone can also lose it's effectiveness over time and also has a withdrawal syndrome. Using it to get over a rough time right now is fine as long as it is doing it's job, but as soon as you feel better, I'd start thinking of tapering it...a nice, slow one, slower even than your doctor recommeds for good measure.

But I am glad for now you are getting some relief while you rid yourself of your former pills. Someday, I am sure you will get off all pills for good. Take it one day at a time; it's not a race but you can make it to the finish line and that's what's important! :wave:

Deeandees,

Don't worry....I know that is hard to do when you simply cannot sleep at all. I've been there and I can tell you, natural sleep will come back. It doesn't come back all at once, and sometimes is irregular for awhile. I remember some of my first sleeps after quitting my benzo as being very light and short....I could hear everything around me, yet I was extremely relaxed. When I would wake, I felt a bit refreshed. Sometimes I would be dreaming....dreaming was a big clue I had actually dosed off because sometimes I wasn't sure!! But the sleeps usually only lasted a short while....sometimes, as little as 10-15 minutes!

But eventually, those minutes became a half-hour; the half-hour became hours, etc.; going without alot of sleep for days turned into sleeping some everyday. Inbetween, I'd have a full night here and there. There was no specific pattern to predict.

It's a process which takes some time. You could go with the Trazadone, if it gets too tough, but it's always' best to let the brain do it's thing in it's own time. If you do take Trazadone, it should start at 50 mgs. from what I've heard, and 100 is average. I would be leary of anything above that since you want to not develop a dependance or tolerance to it.

Good luck to you; I know what you are going through and it's horrible to say the least....[/QUOTE]
jennita i've been on trazadone for over a year 200 mgs and its never lost it effectiveness the way i see it is i got the sleep i needed to heal seeing how sleep is the best way to heal i'm now actually weaning my self down off it because i want natural sleep and all these other meds i take i cant wait to get off off i just feel if you need some help through a rough time thats what you gotta do if i wasnt on some of these meds i'd be a basket case i actually still have alot of issues but hopefully in time they will resolve their selves thanks so much for caring it means alot you're awesome to worry about someone you dont even know and with what i've been through i completly understand why you do thanks again kelleigh :angel: :wave: :)
[QUOTE=howard678]Jennita,

Acquaintances and associates that have no idea about the benzo withdrawal say they do not know how I do it. I actually have two jobs, one long hours and high stress, one short hours, low stress. I guess I do not like the alternative, sitting at home watching grade B movies and my bank balance shrink. And I have had a very extensive physical exam and all is good, so I am probably not going to drop dead. But I do plan on some employment changes in the near future. A lot of things inspire me like Churchill`s quote when the bombs kept falling, "We will never surrender." That and the fact that I have acquired a lot of experience at feeling crappy off and on. Affects me less... Thanks for the encouragement and the hug. :)[/QUOTE]

Your welcome! You are lucky to be so healthy, that will help you in the long run...I've heard of some people not only having problems with drugs but also with poor health/diseases at the same time....I can't imagine that, can you?

My brother-in-law is a repiratory therapist and went through some high stress times (emotional too, when patients' die!). He took up skateboarding, of all things, he's in his fourties! He says it helps his stress alot. I guess we all must find what can do that for us...for me it's the gym and walking around Disneyland( South Calf. residents annual pass keeps it affordable). Both my brother-in-law and I are just big kids really. :jester:

Exercise will help the most I do believe; makes you feel so much better, whether it's at the gym or shooting hoops at the park, riding a bike, etc.
I'm so sorry for you. All I can tell you is this; it is entirely possible to become drug free and panic free one day. I remember in the early days of my experience that I was so exhausted from racing heart/panic that I could barely talk. I talked in a hushed tone. Sleep? Impossible...

I went to get several opinions from doctors; not one really told me anything about the drugs except they shouldn't have caused any of this; that after 2 weeks, the drug is gone and so should any problems be. ONe time during my early withdrawal I went to a new doctor for a cold and mentioned my conditon at the time...in which I was only sleeping 14 hours a week. She told me it would never improve without pills of some sort because she had seen some of her patients try unsuccessfully....but then again, I wonder how long they tried....2 wks? SHe had never heard of benzo protracted syndrome. But by then, I finally had so I declined her offer of some AD that supposedly would help me sleep. She even offered some more Ativan.....I told her no way.

Now, I don't need pills for anything. I certainly sleep many more hours now too.... and heart racing/panic??....all gone.

Guess she was wrong now, wasn't she? :p

So no matter how long it takes, you will be ok. It may take awhile. It may not. You have a really good chance your withdrawals will be mild or short-lived. I took the benzos much longer than you and developed tolerance....that means, basically, if you took your regular Klonopin right now and felt absolutely no relief. So I was much worse off than you and not informed intil well into it. No doctor informed me of the truth; I found out myself on those websites on benzo withdrawal. I feel very lucky and fortunate that others were willing to go to the trouble to help people like me. I guess sometimes I feel I owe a debt....this is why I periodically visit the boards to try and warn others. Some listen; some don't but I feel it's worth a shot.

Don't let fear about all this get to you because although it is hard to go through, it's not permenant. If you had cancer, or some horrible disease without any cure, it would be a different story. You have something that does have a cure....unfortunately, it's not a magical bullet. It's simply time and preserverance. Take care of yourself, eat right, exercise, rest as much as you need.....and mostly don't be scared this is a life sentence because it isn't. Like Howard said, change your name to have patience! ;)
[QUOTE=Jennita]I'm so sorry for you. All I can tell you is this; it is entirely possible to become drug free and panic free one day. I remember in the early days of my experience that I was so exhausted from racing heart/panic that I could barely talk. I talked in a hushed tone. Sleep? Impossible...

I went to get several opinions from doctors; not one really told me anything about the drugs except they shouldn't have caused any of this; that after 2 weeks, the drug is gone and so should any problems be. ONe time during my early withdrawal I went to a new doctor for a cold and mentioned my conditon at the time...in which I was only sleeping 14 hours a week. She told me it would never improve without pills of some sort because she had seen some of her patients try unsuccessfully....but then again, I wonder how long they tried....2 wks? SHe had never heard of benzo protracted syndrome. But by then, I finally had so I declined her offer of some AD that supposedly would help me sleep. She even offered some more Ativan.....I told her no way.

Now, I don't need pills for anything. I certainly sleep many more hours now too.... and heart racing/panic??....all gone.

Guess she was wrong now, wasn't she? :p

So no matter how long it takes, you will be ok. It may take awhile. It may not. You have a really good chance your withdrawals will be mild or short-lived. I took the benzos much longer than you and developed tolerance....that means, basically, if you took your regular Klonopin right now and felt absolutely no relief. So I was much worse off than you and not informed intil well into it. No doctor informed me of the truth; I found out myself on those websites on benzo withdrawal. I feel very lucky and fortunate that others were willing to go to the trouble to help people like me. I guess sometimes I feel I owe a debt....this is why I periodically visit the boards to try and warn others. Some listen; some don't but I feel it's worth a shot.

Don't let fear about all this get to you because although it is hard to go through, it's not permenant. If you had cancer, or some horrible disease without any cure, it would be a different story. You have something that does have a cure....unfortunately, it's not a magical bullet. It's simply time and preserverance. Take care of yourself, eat right, exercise, rest as much as you need.....and mostly don't be scared this is a life sentence because it isn't. Like Howard said, change your name to have patience! ;)[/QUOTE]
thanks jennita that makes me feel so much better thanks for your story it helps considerably you've been so helpful and i can't thank you enough i'm glad you stay on the boards because so many people could use people like you and howard no sugar coating thanks again kelleigh :) :angel:
Jennita,

It is refreshing finding someone like yourself that can stand some disagreement without getting defensive and personal. :-) Kay Leigh`s case is not easy as opiates and panic issues are also on the table, so what may be quickly attributed to benzos may be something else. I hate these drugs as much as anyone but insist on trying to be objective. Some of this relates to my academic training.

I think a lot of tapering problems are related to the fear of tapering rather than the tapering itself. Ashton alludes to this. I feel it but cut 1.25 mgs a week and remain thus far plenty functional. And "plenty functional" is my definition of stable. And have no plans of taking 20 weeks to bust out the last 10 mgs, though I remain open minded on it. Stringing out a taper too long leaves one more prone to get hit more and more from two directions, reduction and tolerance withdrawals.

I have a hard time personally viewing insomnia as a withdrawal symptom. The problem is no worse now than it was 10 years ago, long before benzos. I recall Janik, and no offense to him if he reads this, speaking of taking 5 months to taper off of .25 mgs of Xanax, this over insomnia. That is unimagineable to me. That equates to 5 mgs of Valium. I know it is relative to some degree by that is just not much benzo. I plan to take the plunge at 2 or 3 mgs, especially if I am already feeling it, see no point in tapering pinches that only partially postpone the inevitable, some discomfort for a while.

As to Kay Leigh, well I think the discussion regarding her tapering will probably prove moot in the end, as I strongly suspect she will take her doctor`s advice and keep taking her pretty high dose of Klonopin for a while long, and then will need to taper. My suggestion I guess about 10 days ago was to ditch the stuff but I do not think that is going to happen. I never had a panic attack pre-benzo. Last one I had was in detox last Nov. I think some of the reason is that I am no longer afraid of them. I used to think they were heart attacks but all my tests in that area are normal. I know what they are, what they feel like, and what they can and cannot do. If I have one, I`ll just have it and if by chance I am in public I will excuse myself for a while. I am not looking for them or expecting them.
[QUOTE=howard678]Jennita,

It is refreshing finding someone like yourself that can stand some disagreement without getting defensive and personal. :-) Kay Leigh`s case is not easy as opiates and panic issues are also on the table, so what may be quickly attributed to benzos may be something else. I hate these drugs as much as anyone but insist on trying to be objective. Some of this relates to my academic training.

I think a lot of tapering problems are related to the fear of tapering rather than the tapering itself. Ashton alludes to this. I feel it but cut 1.25 mgs a week and remain thus far plenty functional. And "plenty functional" is my definition of stable. And have no plans of taking 20 weeks to bust out the last 10 mgs, though I remain open minded on it. Stringing out a taper too long leaves one more prone to get hit more and more from two directions, reduction and tolerance withdrawals.

I have a hard time personally viewing insomnia as a withdrawal symptom. The problem is no worse now than it was 10 years ago, long before benzos. I recall Janik, and no offense to him if he reads this, speaking of taking 5 months to taper off of .25 mgs of Xanax, this over insomnia. That is unimagineable to me. That equates to 5 mgs of Valium. I know it is relative to some degree by that is just not much benzo. I plan to take the plunge at 2 or 3 mgs, especially if I am already feeling it, see no point in tapering pinches that only partially postpone the inevitable, some discomfort for a while.

As to Kay Leigh, well I think the discussion regarding her tapering will probably prove moot in the end, as I strongly suspect she will take her doctor`s advice and keep taking her pretty high dose of Klonopin for a while long, and then will need to taper. My suggestion I guess about 10 days ago was to ditch the stuff but I do not think that is going to happen. I never had a panic attack pre-benzo. Last one I had was in detox last Nov. I think some of the reason is that I am no longer afraid of them. I used to think they were heart attacks but all my tests in that area are normal. I know what they are, what they feel like, and what they can and cannot do. If I have one, I`ll just have it and if by chance I am in public I will excuse myself for a while. I am not looking for them or expecting them.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, howard. Well, we all have our individual views, experiences, and collection of information. For example, if you don't like Breggin, that's ok although I think he's a pioneer; Dr. Ann Tracy has been warning about SSRi's, inaccurate disclosures in clinical testing, etc. for 14 years now finally the mainstream media and the FDA have discovered it for themselves so I admire her too but you don't have to just because I do....but we both have Ashton so at least that's something, huh? ;)

I believe Janik's experience because you really never know about these drugs...I remember one poor woman had horrible insomnia over letting go of just 3 mgs. Valium in the support group at the end of her taper...I forgot what she started on.

She would give up too soon and take it again then try not to...very irregular and soon the 3 mgs. stopped working. I tried to tell her she did not give natural sleep enough time and she kept giving in to more Valium after a few days, then she'd get mad at herself and try to not take any. She never stayed on course. She stopped writing so I don't know what happened to her but she was in bad shape, passing out at work, losing her job, etc...all over 3 mgs. Valium!

So I know some of this is hard to believe but sometimes you never know. That's why I don't think the drugs should be taken so lightly. I know some people can take them and then leave them but it's such a risky business...like you said, if you had known how risky you wouldn't have chanced it. Neither would I have!

Your insomnia was different than mine's or Janiks. You would be so jealous of my sleep history I don't know if I should tell you about it. Well, suffice to say it was excellent. Benzos took that away. I got most of it back; at 3+ years off, it's not back to my pre-benzo sleep but that's ok as I am still, unbelievable as it would seem at this point, improving steadily. I remember once a very nice woman e-mailed me in the group, an old-timer who was back to normal sleep and said it took 5 years for that to happen for her....during that time, she began to sleep well, but it took longer for it to become consistant and whole again. In other words, back to old consistancy and reliability.

That's an aweful amount of time to have to wait for something that was taken away from you so needlessly. This is what is so disgusting about all this...needless suffering.

I think your insomnia is a different story. I hope after benzos you can do something to help it. I do know good diet and exercise really helps but I also know there can be more to it, so I hope you can figure it all out.

I don't know if I'm right, but it also sounds like the panic stuff is on it's way out with you. I think you've passed it up already; if any does appear again I'm sure it will be short lived. Hurray!!! :bouncing:

I think you were right about kelleigh; maybe should have stopped the klonopin sooner, but she has to do what she feels is best and she was also battling methadone problems. At least she has the information she needs now to get through everything ok....that does really make a difference.
[QUOTE=Jennita]Yes, I do agree. I would never tell someone to get off meds if they have a severe case of bi-polar or schizophrenia. But my point was, those conditions are pretty rare compared to the amount of people being given pills for life situations, poor health habit, stress, grief, etc. My poor mother-in-law, as I mentioned before, was hounded over her "tiredness" at age 76 to take SSRi's and even her former doctor scared her up when her husband died many years ago, saying that she couldn't survive it without Prozac. Lucky she wasn't one for pills or by now I'm sure she'd be on many and labeled as mentally ill.

You know, since you mention bi-polar, I've read about some celebrity cases where although symptoms were present before meds, there had been a psychoactive drug history, sometimes illegal or legal. I wonder if there is a connection to them and also alcohol seems to be in the history too. I know people like Carrie Fisher, Robert DowneyJr., Margot Kidder and Patty Duke had drug histories before the diagnoisis and subsequent drug treatments for bi-polar. I read an article where Margot Kidder was on drug treatments for her bipolar and simply got worse; she decided to get off her meds and instead go to a doctor specializing in amino acid treatments and it was quite successful for her. I also read where some research indicated B-vitamins were helping cure schizophrenia. This all makes sense to me because I read that when protein digests, assisted by carbs and vitamins, , it breaks down into amino acids. If you look up amino acid charts, they all seem to be involved in creating neurotransmitters, vital for mental health!

All that makes me wonder if there are better ways for the truly mentally ill other than toxic drugs. I realize in severe cases, they don't have time to fool around and the drugs definately are needed as some sort of control factor to save the person's life or others who might be in danger of those people. But I really think they don't spend enough research on exploring the other options....which I imagine are not as profitable, however, as drugs so maybe that's why the mainstream psychiatric doesn't go after such options.

Drug treatment can still end up in disaster, look at Andrea Yates. One of the Columbine shooters was on Luvox, which can cause manic reactions and suicidial idealizations. Even if the Luvox didn't play a part in his thinking(which many believe it did), at the very least we can say the drug failed to do it's job in keeping the boy somewhat sane.

Anyway, my whole point at the beginning was the drugs are prescribed often to too many people who may not be mentally ill at all; but these uncertain drugs are perfectly capable of creating mental illness over time...[/QUOTE]

It makes sense that most people that are prescribed SSRIs do not need them. The vitamins, amino acid therapies fall under alternative medicine which seems to be just getting off the ground. Doctors are probably reluctant to delve in this arena for fear of lawsuits. We are a lawsuit happy nation, millionaires made over night over trivial matters. Prescribing F.D.A. approved medicines is a much safer bet for them. They have invested huge sums and effort in getting their licenses and do not want to lose them.

I am aware of no solid clinical evidence that SSRIs or benzos cause "mental illness" or any permanent damage. In the case of the latter Ashton says the contrary. If one is to make such affirmations of fact please come with some solid broad based evidence. Something more than Breggin, one psychiatrist on the net that is selling books and taking patients. That is unless we are to call a withdrawal syndrome or anti-social behavior while on the drug "mental illness." But in that case there is hardly any mind altering, inhibition lowering drug that could be left out, including alcohol. Then we would have lawsuits against Budweiser. And the whole "the drug made me do it theme" is questionable in itself, "the twinkie defense."

My contention all along has been that conclusions drawn from small samplings of internet personal testimonies or minimal and/or questionable internet sources, faulty analysis, and sometimes out and out fanaticism are hurting a lot of people, especially when such contentions are stated so a matter of factly. The truth is, according to Ashton, is that many come off of these drugs with no problems and the rest typically are fine within 3 months. With just with my own minimal time I have found at least a dozen people that came off benzos, some fast, some slow, some C/T, all fine within two months. This is the norm, what to be expected, but if someone is led to expect something different they are liable to get it. You see now why I am not welcome in your standard benzo support forums. Even though I always walked on eggshells and was far less candid than at present here. But actually I came here mainly to offer some support, not to re-visit the same old stuff I wisely removed myself from.
[QUOTE=howard678]It makes sense that most people that are prescribed SSRIs do not need them. The vitamins, amino acid therapies fall under alternative medicine which seems to be just getting off the ground. Doctors are probably reluctant to delve in this arena for fear of lawsuits. We are a lawsuit happy nation, millionaires made over night over trivial matters. Prescribing F.D.A. approved medicines is a much safer bet for them. They have invested huge sums and effort in getting their licenses and do not want to lose them.

I am aware of no solid clinical evidence that SSRIs or benzos cause "mental illness" or any permanent damage. In the case of the latter Ashton says the contrary. If one is to make such affirmations of fact please come with some solid broad based evidence. Something more than Breggin, one psychiatrist on the net that is selling books and taking patients. That is unless we are to call a withdrawal syndrome or anti-social behavior while on the drug "mental illness." But in that case there is hardly any mind altering, inhibition lowering drug that could be left out, including alcohol. Then we would have lawsuits against Budweiser. And the whole "the drug made me do it theme" is questionable in itself, "the twinkie defense."

My contention all along has been that conclusions drawn from small samplings of internet personal testimonies or minimal and/or questionable internet sources, faulty analysis, and sometimes out and out fanaticism are hurting a lot of people, especially when such contentions are stated so a matter of factly. The truth is, according to Ashton, is that many come off of these drugs with no problems and the rest typically are fine within 3 months. With just with my own minimal time I have found at least a dozen people that came off benzos, some fast, some slow, some C/T, all fine within two months. This is the norm, what to be expected, but if someone is led to expect something different they are liable to get it. You see now why I am not welcome in your standard benzo support forums. Even though I always walked on eggshells and was far less candid than at present here. But actually I came here mainly to offer some support, not to re-visit the same old stuff I wisely removed myself from.[/QUOTE]

Whoo there howard,

Yep, I suppose I didn't make myself clear on the "causing" mental illness but you did hit it on the head in trying to decipher what I meant....yes, it's the withdrawal syndrome and antisocial behavior you mentioned! Those things are exactly what is interpreted by the psychiatric community as mental illness! In fact, my difficulties in withdrawal was interpreted by a psych (what a mistake going to one of those for benzo) as "OCD"....apparentely, if one is desperately ill as I was decides to try and find out why (aka research), then they must have OCD. Before he found out I started researching my symptoms/problems with the benzo, he never mentioned I might have OCD. I didn't really have any of the symptoms anyway. But oh, yeah, he thought I should get on Luvox right away, despite the fact insomnia was a major side effect of that med in particular. What the.. ****?....that was my major withdrawal symptom and he was going to give me that ****?

So misenterpreting benzo and SSRi's reactions/side effects/withdrawals is exactly what gets people in the mental illness trap. I am also glad you mentioned alcohol too, because it can cause all sorts of anti-social behaviors, depression, and this can also be classed mental disease...after all, they do say alcholism is a "disease".....another mental one at that.

Sue Budweiser? C'mon howard, that's like suing McDonalds for being fat....anyone forcing you to eat the cheeseburger, or claiming it's a health food? The liquior industry makes no claims that alcohol is safe or cures any disease....unlike the drug companies. Alcohol is not recommended or imposed as medicine. There is no misleading or false claims of safety there.....

You forget, I'm an Ashton fan too. She also speaks of Protracted Benzo Withdrawal Syndrome. She doesn't guarentee you won't get it, only that most do not. But she states it does exist and is very real. Let's not assume, like the psychiatric community would, that anyone past two months withdrawal has to be nuts if they have symptoms still....that's just not true. That's the very thinking that causes normal, withdrawing/recovering people to be slapped back on meds they don't need..... :nono:
[QUOTE=Jennita]Whoo there howard,

Yep, I suppose I didn't make myself clear on the "causing" mental illness but you did hit it on the head in trying to decipher what I meant....yes, it's the withdrawal syndrome and antisocial behavior you mentioned! Those things are exactly what is interpreted by the psychiatric community as mental illness! In fact, my difficulties in withdrawal was interpreted by a psych (what a mistake going to one of those for benzo) as "OCD"....apparentely, if one is desperately ill as I was decides to try and find out why (aka research), then they must have OCD. Before he found out I started researching my symptoms/problems with the benzo, he never mentioned I might have OCD. I didn't really have any of the symptoms anyway. But oh, yeah, he thought I should get on Luvox right away, despite the fact insomnia was a major side effect of that med in particular. What the.. ****?....that was my major withdrawal symptom and he was going to give me that ****?

So misenterpreting benzo and SSRi's reactions/side effects/withdrawals is exactly what gets people in the mental illness trap. I am also glad you mentioned alcohol too, because it can cause all sorts of anti-social behaviors, depression, and this can also be classed mental disease...after all, they do say alcholism is a "disease".....another mental one at that.

Sue Budweiser? C'mon howard, that's like suing McDonalds for being fat....anyone forcing you to eat the cheeseburger, or claiming it's a health food? The liquior industry makes no claims that alcohol is safe or cures any disease....unlike the drug companies. Alcohol is not recommended or imposed as medicine. There is no misleading or false claims of safety there.....

You forget, I'm an Ashton fan too. She also speaks of Protracted Benzo Withdrawal Syndrome. She doesn't guarentee you won't get it, only that most do not. But she states it does exist and is very real. Let's not assume, like the psychiatric community would, that anyone past two months withdrawal has to be nuts if they have symptoms still....that's just not true. That's the very thinking that causes normal, withdrawing/recovering people to be slapped back on meds they don't need..... :nono:[/QUOTE]

LOL Jennita based on your internet personality you are obviously good people and understand that I am not trying to be mean spirited, only to stimulate discussion. I do not disagree with one word you have written above. No one will get away with labeling me mentally ill due to benzo withdrawals. I know what is going on.

And on another point you made to another poster... I am grateful to Ray Nimmo for posting the Ashton Manual on the net, or perhaps I would have thought I was losing my mind with all the symptoms. And, no doubt, it would not have been hard to find a shrink to validate that. But in case you did not know, Ray`s forum and the Ashton Manual are not one in the same. This is not something I have merely deduced, they will come right out and tell you, "we do not agree with every word she wrote." From there follows many new and some inconsistent claims. These usually fall under the heading of "our collective experiences," and for me, were often the tougher sells...

I have chosen to leave the site for the time being, maybe permanently as I could have already been kicked out again as my typed words at times seemed to be interpreted as attacks, but I was only testing the iron, put some fire on and see what is left and how solid it is, trying to learn. Part of a process, not intended as personal, is the way I was raised and trained throughout my education.

I do wish them well, but cannot handle reading some of the horror stories at the moment. Plus what I need more than anything right now is coaching on non-drug means for trying to stay calm. My nervous system is vulnerable and there seems to be a clear coorelation between symptoms and stress triggers. I have found some people from that forum that help in that area and I communicate with them through other means. You might have some ideas on this yourself. :)

P.S.
The Budwieser comments were hyperbole. Your distinction is valid.
[QUOTE=mise ata ann]Jumping in here.................
I agree with you Windy..............to expect tapering for addicts is very hard - but has to be done for benzos because of the nature of its action on the brain. But I loathed the anti medic attitudes! Appalling. Counter productive. Hence the cult like status.
BUT - I think Ashton is very credible and her research is authentic. She is one tough lady and continues to do battle with our Health Minister in the UK for the treatment of benzo addicts wanting to come off. Personally I think her Manual is an absol must for someone trying to get off benzos.
But the rest.............. the mods......................... whew! But the man himself I have time for - unfortunately I think he may be ill now. Too too much ...........nothing else in his life but his forum?
What do you think?

Who the hell said Dubya? Isnt he the guy who is trying to stop Michael Moore pull the plug on the Bush/bin Laden family joint business industries - joint owners of an armaments factory in US. binLadens sold their stock on 9/12! ho ho ho. Dubya has vetoed it - but it will be shown at the Cannes and Toronto film festivals! Prepare to be shocked America - yet again!
hey - have to give the Pressie some standing - he is a reformed alkie and druggie!
Mise[/QUOTE]

Well, I will take the addict label and believe in slow tapering, am down pretty low now. I had a very stressful week and would love as the Rolling Stones put it, to "take four more of these" but the eventual consquences of that scare me more than withdrawal symptoms. Can we imagine eating 20 blue Valiums a day and still not getting relief? These are damnable drugs to be sure.
[QUOTE=howard678]<> Jennita

Adequate education needs to be printed on the pharmacy inserts. I always read these. The only warning I got with my first prescription of Xanax was that "it may be habit forming if taken for longer than directed by your doctor." Even a halfway description of the potential withdrawal syndrome and the pills, which cost a mere $10, would have gone in the nearest trash can. I was not out to get high, was not on drugs, did not even drink, and had way too much to lose at the time to be taking any real chances. Even though I did find I really liked what the Xanax did, still would have ditched them had I been warned in time. Then the worst I had done was eased what woes may have come with alcohol. I know some have real trouble staying off of it, but 5 days of pain and one in the clear. May be why so many go keep going back on it, such a brief withdrawal syndrome.[/QUOTE]

Yeh, I hear you about those inserts...pretty useless most of the time. Now that the internet has so much to offer, even my elderly mother will look up any new mediction online now for the usually unmentioned potential adverse effects!

Benzos have such a long recovery/withdrawal syndrome compared to other drugs....maybe that's why most addicts/alcoholics want to go back whereas most benzo people can't stand the thought of any more benzos once they get free!
[QUOTE=no patience]howard i id'nt really want to go on these sites iwas just curious of what they were all about because windsy man asked if jennita was a nimmo-ite and i did'nt know if he meant that in abad way or what. hope your doing well and can't believe my very first post has come to all this 32 pages of stuff i know nothing about but i'm glad it's here because i'm gaining so much knowledge in something i did'nt realize could be so harmful i thought methadone was a bad one but reading all this is making me realize the klonopin has got to go did'nt want to listen at first because it is helping me through a rough time but what will help me when i'm coming off that ? i always thought people got addicted to benzos because they gave you some kind of euphoric feeling guess i was wrong when i first took a klonopin i was like ok how is this addicting but reading all these posts now i completly understand i thank you all for that and talk to you soon you must be so proud of your self getting off these and doing it with out the aid of any ssri i give you so much credit chat soon friend kelleigh :wave:[/QUOTE]


Kelliegh,

Seems we all are in agreement here that your best line of defense in the benzo battle is Ashton. The other sites/support groups may be helpful but you need to take them with a grain of salt as we have seen. Nimmo is Ray's last name, the owner of one site, so if one was a nimmo-ite, well, I guess that means you are some sort of unholy spawn of his....ha....a joke, don't worry. Anyway, if you type in benzo withdrawal in a search, alot of informative sites will surely pop up. Major search engines are also a source of some formed support groups specific to benzos.

But it's Ashton that has the last word. Her work is truly a godsend. :angel:

Don't stay away too long! :wave:
[QUOTE=Jennita]I'll jump in here...by the way, howard, I hope you are doing better...remember, it does take the brain some time to recover from benzo use...been there, done that too!

No patience, addiction is really a misunderstood term. Addiction is a combo of physical dependancy along with social and behavioral issues. Most addictive drugs have the ability to create euphorias at higher doses. Higher doses of benzos like klonopin usually will simply put one to sleep. Not much in the euphoria dept there.

I commonly tell people benzos are addictive, but sometimes I need to clarify that to some people. Benzos create sometimes huge physical dependancy. Physical dependancy in itself is NOT addiction. True "addiction" is a behavior, driven by various things, but mainly a behavior.

For example, even if one kicks the cocaine habit physically (no more withdrawals), the old way of behavior (liking or being drawn to the euphoric feelings or the people involved in the drug circles) tends to be what is hard to fight....and sometimes it leads back to the old habit again. But simply getting sick if one skips a klonopin or trys to get off is not addiction...it's physical dependancy.

Klonopin and other benzos have high potential of dependancy and tolerance. How fast these develop is varied by dosage, type of benzo, how often it is taken, personal chemistry, etc. Also, withdrawal type symptoms can linger for months to years depending during the phase after physical withdrawal, called the recovery phase. I read that benzos are exclusive to having the longest recovery period of any drug, illegal or legal! Unfortunately, nobody takes them seriously, usually the cocaine addicts, junkies and alcoholics get all the attention! I guess it's because the effects of benzos vary and sometimes are not even recognized as a culprit because of prior conditions or simply because they are all nice-and-cozy legal drugs...

Look up the free online Ashton Manual. It's pretty long and it goes into alot of explanation about benzos. The woman who wrote it, Professor Heather Ashton in the 1980's, ran a clinic in the UK for benzo patients.

Occassional (not daily) and lower doses may help avoid dependancy in most (not all) cases.

Also, no cold turkey on a benzo as sometimes seizures can result.[/QUOTE]
Jennita,
Good Post. I realize I am dependent upon and would go through withdrawals from use of klonopin for a long time, but I've never crossed that line with the benzos, otherwise, my doc would have taken me off of them along time ago.
Murphy
Murphy,
Howard gives you good advice.
The work addiction doesnt really describe the position as Jennita says - technically it is iatrogenic addiction. Its a dependency caused by use - and very short use too. The British National Formulary and Prof Ashton say that all benzos - and that includes the very very potent ones like xanax and klonopin so popular in the US - recommed using for a maximum of between 2 - 4 weeks. And NOT suitable for use for anxiety or bereavement! In fact they even lose their efficay in a matter of a short time - a month or so. The pharmas know damn well and the doctors are either stupid or just getting rich (xanax makes literally billions of dollars for its makers and prescribers). These mind alterning drugs were produced for anaesthesia - a one off - how in hell's name can drugs like this be safe for anyone not undergoing surgery?
If you have been using for more than a few months (and bear in mind there is no abuse involved here - just being taken as prescribed by your doctor) - you are almost certainly well and truly hooked. If you doubt this - just stop taking the K - it has a long half life and you will notce nothing for about 2 days and then see if anything happens? If you can stop - then good for you. If you have withdrawals then you must use a slow taper method for getting off - as in the Ashton Manual (free now online).
Murphy - if I were you I would ask your doctor what is protocol will be for withdrawing you from the drug - if he doesnt give you reasonable answers - then change doctors. This is serious stuff - dont be fooled by ignorant doctors. There are many of them out there. And your withdrawal will be months - if you are on 1 mg K that is equivalent to 20 mg valium - a pretty large dose.
Take care - get as much info as you can - there is loads on the net. You need to do something if you have been on for a matter of some months or years because there drugs actually strart to produce the very symptoms for which they were prescribed.
And one of the most common side effects of benzos is anxiety. So you are perhaps taking the drug which in fact is causing you the problems. If you want I will bump up an old thread that tells you about side effects of taking the drugs.
Do you know now that in the UK its a real hot topic. All doctors are calling in their long term benzo users with a view to planning their withdrawals. Our own Prof Ashton is in touch with our Health Minister for change in regulations for GPs to assist patients from getting off benzos.
Information is power.
Its all in your own hands - especially if you are in the US.
Good luck
Mise
[QUOTE=mise ata ann]Murphy,
Howard gives you good advice.
The work addiction doesnt really describe the position as Jennita says - technically it is iatrogenic addiction. Its a dependency caused by use - and very short use too. The British National Formulary and Prof Ashton say that all benzos - and that includes the very very potent ones like xanax and klonopin so popular in the US - recommed using for a maximum of between 2 - 4 weeks. And NOT suitable for use for anxiety or bereavement! In fact they even lose their efficay in a matter of a short time - a month or so. The pharmas know damn well and the doctors are either stupid or just getting rich (xanax makes literally billions of dollars for its makers and prescribers). These mind alterning drugs were produced for anaesthesia - a one off - how in hell's name can drugs like this be safe for anyone not undergoing surgery?
If you have been using for more than a few months (and bear in mind there is no abuse involved here - just being taken as prescribed by your doctor) - you are almost certainly well and truly hooked. If you doubt this - just stop taking the K - it has a long half life and you will notce nothing for about 2 days and then see if anything happens? If you can stop - then good for you. If you have withdrawals then you must use a slow taper method for getting off - as in the Ashton Manual (free now online).
Murphy - if I were you I would ask your doctor what is protocol will be for withdrawing you from the drug - if he doesnt give you reasonable answers - then change doctors. This is serious stuff - dont be fooled by ignorant doctors. There are many of them out there. And your withdrawal will be months - if you are on 1 mg K that is equivalent to 20 mg valium - a pretty large dose.
Take care - get as much info as you can - there is loads on the net. You need to do something if you have been on for a matter of some months or years because there drugs actually strart to produce the very symptoms for which they were prescribed.
And one of the most common side effects of benzos is anxiety. So you are perhaps taking the drug which in fact is causing you the problems. If you want I will bump up an old thread that tells you about side effects of taking the drugs.
Do you know now that in the UK its a real hot topic. All doctors are calling in their long term benzo users with a view to planning their withdrawals. Our own Prof Ashton is in touch with our Health Minister for change in regulations for GPs to assist patients from getting off benzos.
Information is power.
Its all in your own hands - especially if you are in the US.
Good luck
Mise[/QUOTE]
we haven't formally met but my name is kelleigh i've read your posts and lets just say i like em .i'm on klonopin to and howard informed me back on page 3to flush it which i was'nt to thrilled about at the time but now i read every word all of you right. i've been on it 5 weeks i know it's not long but i'm doing my own little taper because all of your stories horrify me . i started this post when i first joined the boards and i'm so happy that all of this is being written because it's opened my eyes to yet another sh-tty drug thanks mise all of you have informed me .well nice meeting you kelleigh :wave:
[QUOTE=howard678]Hey Kelleigh,

Not a good day. Heart symptoms. Mine sometimes takes off for hours, high end BP also. About all you can do is lay down and try and relax if you do not want to take a med. Not a good situation for a middle aged male. Perhaps Jennita will come in and tell us how she dealt with this, if she had similar issues. They say on another board, "the only way out is through," but I`d rather not make it through in a casket...[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure about the blood pressure thing because I avoided doctors like the plague during withdrawal, but I did get sick a few times with infection and when my blood pressure was taken, it was ok. I attribute my good blood pressure strictly to weight training. I would do at least a little even during early withdrawals.

I'm 47 and benzo withdrawal left me with an extra 40 lbs to deal with since after acute withdrawal(no appetite and severe weight loss), it boomeranged into constant hunger and weight gain. I've lost 10 lbs of it finally and very slowly( I don't try that hard diet wise; but I should :nono: ) but even with that large of a weight gain plus withdrawals/lingering sleep issues, I still manage to have a blood pressure every time I check at around 120/60!

It has to be the exercise, because although I try to be nutrition consious, I have to have chocolate/ice creams/desserts or fast food way too often. I'm also Italian, and pasta is a fav of mine. So I can't say diet has kept my weight down, so again, it has to be the exercise!!! It also can't be youth, I'm 47 and this, from what I've heard is fairly old. :confused: I'm also still 30 lbs. over my old weight but still the pressure is down.

I go to the gym 4 times a week; free weights and machines, then around 15-20 minutes of some sort of cardio machine.

But that is now; before, in early withdrawal, I only did mild, light weight work and short, non-stressful cardio like walking or light setting on the bike at the gym. Just didn't have enough energy.

So what's my point? Errrr....I forgot....just kidding! :) My point is, exercise, although difficult in withdrawal, is a must!!!!!!!! Even just some walking will make enough of a difference to keep that pressure down!

As far as the heart racing, that is something I remember well!! Ugh... :eek: :(
I would have like 100 BPM resting rate! That's insane, especially for a person who's usual range was 64-70!

But eventually, it does go back to pre-benzo state...don't be too worried about it, unless of course you haven't had a checkup just to make sure there is no other heart condition.

We know benzo withdrawals will not make us immune to other conditions. But I had already took the complete physical during withdrawal, so I knew my heart-racing was benzo-related. Sure enough, as time passed, it got better and finally returned to normal.
Also, remember, withdrawals are too taxing on the body for one to try and exercise too vigorously! You might over-due and cause more stress on the body. This isn't an Olympic event; merely starting with a few minutes a day can do wonders, and later as withdrawals get better, more time and effort can be added.

So, keep the exercise very mild during this time. That was a hard thing for me psychologically, because I had been used to vigorous workouts but I knew I had to be careful during such a trauma as benzo withdrawal not to make myself worse.

So, take it easy but try to do whatever you can. Your blood pressure will thank you for it. ;)
[QUOTE=Twinlynn]Howard,

Nice to see your name on the board, again. :-) I'd been wondering how you were doing--you have had such a tough time. It's so ironic how our bodies all vary when coming off any type of drugs. I, too, have always been stricken with dread when I read those "permanent changes" information. I did read, recently, though, that there is a distinct possibility that the cells in the vicinity of the possible damaged ones, can adapt to taking on some of their capabilities. In any case, it seems that science is still not sure about what constitutes a permanent change....but they say the brain of drug addicts almost always does mend over time. That made me feel a while lot better. I get stressed way to easily by everything I read and learn! I feel obsessed that I completely understand it and all its implications!! (But that's why I needed meds to control my OCD! Before I began to take them...I was constantly lost in a word of tehnicality about anything I read!!! As if I were going for my PhD in each subject! LOL!!) :-)

How much do you still have to taper? In any case, good luck to you. I know you must be nervous awaiting "D-Day." Lynn :-)

Am off now to watch all those horrible "talking head" pundits on the Sunday shows..."Meet the Press", etc, etc!! Good way to keep my blood pressure up! LOL![/QUOTE]

Twinlynn,

Thanks for the reply. Do you have a benzo withdrawal story of your own? If so, please share. Tell me about how you conquered the bear and soon became a happy go lucky, productive member of society.

Actually, I cannot wait until "D Day," about a month from now. I am already in considerable withdrawals at 7.5 mgs of Valium. Am surprised I got this low, but am going to try to get to 3.5 before jumping. Getting off means I am on the way to the true healing. I doubt I will be in for many surprises. Have one withdrawal under my belt already.





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