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Kay Leigh,

6 months. I jumped off of a 1 mg a day dose of Klonopin using a barbituate for help the first week. 26 days off my nerves were still raw and the intermittant pressure in my upper back, neck, and head led me to cave in and do things properly by slow tapering a long acting benzo. If I had it to do over I probably would have stuck it out as the hell usually ends within 3 months, but hindsight is 20/20. Now I am down to a relatively low dose of Valium and wil taper it over about 3 or 4 months, making about a 7 month taper. I have taken only 6 sick days from work through it all. Amazing what you can do when you have to. ;) Next time there will be no looking back.
[QUOTE=howard678]Jennita,

It is refreshing finding someone like yourself that can stand some disagreement without getting defensive and personal. :-) Kay Leigh`s case is not easy as opiates and panic issues are also on the table, so what may be quickly attributed to benzos may be something else. I hate these drugs as much as anyone but insist on trying to be objective. Some of this relates to my academic training.

I think a lot of tapering problems are related to the fear of tapering rather than the tapering itself. Ashton alludes to this. I feel it but cut 1.25 mgs a week and remain thus far plenty functional. And "plenty functional" is my definition of stable. And have no plans of taking 20 weeks to bust out the last 10 mgs, though I remain open minded on it. Stringing out a taper too long leaves one more prone to get hit more and more from two directions, reduction and tolerance withdrawals.

I have a hard time personally viewing insomnia as a withdrawal symptom. The problem is no worse now than it was 10 years ago, long before benzos. I recall Janik, and no offense to him if he reads this, speaking of taking 5 months to taper off of .25 mgs of Xanax, this over insomnia. That is unimagineable to me. That equates to 5 mgs of Valium. I know it is relative to some degree by that is just not much benzo. I plan to take the plunge at 2 or 3 mgs, especially if I am already feeling it, see no point in tapering pinches that only partially postpone the inevitable, some discomfort for a while.

As to Kay Leigh, well I think the discussion regarding her tapering will probably prove moot in the end, as I strongly suspect she will take her doctor`s advice and keep taking her pretty high dose of Klonopin for a while long, and then will need to taper. My suggestion I guess about 10 days ago was to ditch the stuff but I do not think that is going to happen. I never had a panic attack pre-benzo. Last one I had was in detox last Nov. I think some of the reason is that I am no longer afraid of them. I used to think they were heart attacks but all my tests in that area are normal. I know what they are, what they feel like, and what they can and cannot do. If I have one, I`ll just have it and if by chance I am in public I will excuse myself for a while. I am not looking for them or expecting them.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, howard. Well, we all have our individual views, experiences, and collection of information. For example, if you don't like Breggin, that's ok although I think he's a pioneer; Dr. Ann Tracy has been warning about SSRi's, inaccurate disclosures in clinical testing, etc. for 14 years now finally the mainstream media and the FDA have discovered it for themselves so I admire her too but you don't have to just because I do....but we both have Ashton so at least that's something, huh? ;)

I believe Janik's experience because you really never know about these drugs...I remember one poor woman had horrible insomnia over letting go of just 3 mgs. Valium in the support group at the end of her taper...I forgot what she started on.

She would give up too soon and take it again then try not to...very irregular and soon the 3 mgs. stopped working. I tried to tell her she did not give natural sleep enough time and she kept giving in to more Valium after a few days, then she'd get mad at herself and try to not take any. She never stayed on course. She stopped writing so I don't know what happened to her but she was in bad shape, passing out at work, losing her job, etc...all over 3 mgs. Valium!

So I know some of this is hard to believe but sometimes you never know. That's why I don't think the drugs should be taken so lightly. I know some people can take them and then leave them but it's such a risky business...like you said, if you had known how risky you wouldn't have chanced it. Neither would I have!

Your insomnia was different than mine's or Janiks. You would be so jealous of my sleep history I don't know if I should tell you about it. Well, suffice to say it was excellent. Benzos took that away. I got most of it back; at 3+ years off, it's not back to my pre-benzo sleep but that's ok as I am still, unbelievable as it would seem at this point, improving steadily. I remember once a very nice woman e-mailed me in the group, an old-timer who was back to normal sleep and said it took 5 years for that to happen for her....during that time, she began to sleep well, but it took longer for it to become consistant and whole again. In other words, back to old consistancy and reliability.

That's an aweful amount of time to have to wait for something that was taken away from you so needlessly. This is what is so disgusting about all this...needless suffering.

I think your insomnia is a different story. I hope after benzos you can do something to help it. I do know good diet and exercise really helps but I also know there can be more to it, so I hope you can figure it all out.

I don't know if I'm right, but it also sounds like the panic stuff is on it's way out with you. I think you've passed it up already; if any does appear again I'm sure it will be short lived. Hurray!!! :bouncing:

I think you were right about kelleigh; maybe should have stopped the klonopin sooner, but she has to do what she feels is best and she was also battling methadone problems. At least she has the information she needs now to get through everything ok....that does really make a difference.
[QUOTE=no patience][COLOR=Teal]howard i meant to ask how your taper is going and if your sleep is still in alittle bit of chaos hope all is well thanks again for all your help kelleigh[/COLOR] :wave:[/QUOTE]

Hello. :) I am doing good, am cut to 12.5 mgs of Valium a day. In Klonopin terms that is .625. I just keep pressing on, have an excellent doc in my corner. I am prepared to feel pain and discomfort if it comes, am no stranger to it, part of the price to pay. Sleep? No problem on the weekends as I can be my night owl self. My job however requires early risings so during the week I either function on less sleep or use Benadryl. I do not have sleepless nights. How are you doing?
Louisiana? Explains a lot! Huh?
Want to throw in my threepence worth too.
I have read posts by both Jennita and Howard for a while on another board - and agree with almost all they write. It is so good to see them both in here.
Jennita - your story is so very similar to my own - benzos from the doc cos of lack of sleep - Crikey - I had 4 babies under 6!!!! What an eejit................ then the opiates - had a bad smash and was given codeine based pain killers - never knew anything about addiction ................ so - yes - the docs bear some responsibility and I make sure I know everything there is to know now before taking anything - funnily enough rarely go to a doc's these days! But the Nimmoites are dangerous in that anti medic stance IMO.
I have watched Howard struggle with taper. Its such a bummer. I was on 2 mg of ativan and did the Ashton valium taper - took me 8 months - mind you - if the nutters had had their way I would still be tapering! I found it totally tortuous - was the worst 8 months of my life. Took my life away. No energy, pains, depression, agoraphobia, depersonalisation, walking was like walking thro thick glues..... and the rest. Nuff said.
Perhaps the Nimmo place really is only for benzoheads? No-one else? And I have to say that I would speak to the man - one on one for help - didnt take to the others ver much - bar one or two who remain firm friends to this day and we speak daily on the net or the phone. The fool lost his "real" friends and surrounded himself with sychophants.
Oh well - that is all in the past.
I am "sober" now a while - thank God, as in Windy and Jennita and Howard fast approaching - you will have the prize soon!
Good talking to you all.
I am from the "auld country" and as Chef will tell you - we are violent aggressive drunk cursers! I seem to be in good company?
OK - just leave out the violent, drunk, aggressive.
Great to see you all
Mise ata ann
Hello Howard
Nice to speak to you at last.
I am just appalled at what you tell me about the forum - cant talk to an admin? Wonder if Ray has finally flipped?
And I have little time for those mods who I met during my taper - you can keep them!
Like you I started off at 30 mg valium - dropped 5 - 10 quite rapidly and then dropped in general about 2 mg per 2 weeks until I got to 15 - wee hiccup then - stuck for a bit - then resumed at 2 mg till I got to 10, 1 mg till I got to 5, 1/2 mg until I jumped at 1/2. Never looked back. I had pretty dreadful withdrawal symptoms for most of the time - but I dont need to tell you. You have read Ashton? Its all there - she is my bible! The woman has it! Hope you manage on as ever.......... I am having to dash out now - will speak again.
Must just say that yes I think the medical profession esp in the US is profoundly ignorant. Mind you Xanax maked humungous profits for pharmas and doctors - so there is your answer? IN UK we are luckier - doctors are inviting in all regular users of benzos to discuss how to get off. Its a real hot topic here all the way up to Govt. You are not so lucky. I am glad to hear you have managed to get valium. The seizure thing is true too. There is a girl in here - Rosie - who had a seizure when she was taken off just .5 mg xanax peer day. No joke? She is not on a lot just now as she has just been thro detox for opiates - but she is doing just great - but she is still to get off klonopin - she has read her Ashton - maybe you could help her?
Jennita has been a tremendous adviser to you!
Must dash - but I am here and if I can help - and I will be able to with this taper I am sure - just bellow!
Good luck, friend
Mise
[QUOTE=mise ata ann]Louisiana? Explains a lot! Huh?
Want to throw in my threepence worth too.
I have read posts by both Jennita and Howard for a while on another board - and agree with almost all they write. It is so good to see them both in here.
Jennita - your story is so very similar to my own - benzos from the doc cos of lack of sleep - Crikey - I had 4 babies under 6!!!! What an eejit................ then the opiates - had a bad smash and was given codeine based pain killers - never knew anything about addiction ................ so - yes - the docs bear some responsibility and I make sure I know everything there is to know now before taking anything - funnily enough rarely go to a doc's these days! But the Nimmoites are dangerous in that anti medic stance IMO.
I have watched Howard struggle with taper. Its such a bummer. I was on 2 mg of ativan and did the Ashton valium taper - took me 8 months - mind you - if the nutters had had their way I would still be tapering! I found it totally tortuous - was the worst 8 months of my life. Took my life away. No energy, pains, depression, agoraphobia, depersonalisation, walking was like walking thro thick glues..... and the rest. Nuff said.
Perhaps the Nimmo place really is only for benzoheads? No-one else? And I have to say that I would speak to the man - one on one for help - didnt take to the others ver much - bar one or two who remain firm friends to this day and we speak daily on the net or the phone. The fool lost his "real" friends and surrounded himself with sychophants.
Oh well - that is all in the past.
I am "sober" now a while - thank God, as in Windy and Jennita and Howard fast approaching - you will have the prize soon!
Good talking to you all.
I am from the "auld country" and as Chef will tell you - we are violent aggressive drunk cursers! I seem to be in good company?
OK - just leave out the violent, drunk, aggressive.
Great to see you all
Mise ata ann[/QUOTE]

Yes, our stories are simular but my sleep problem was created by the codiene. If I had known that it wouldn't have taken too long to recover from it, I would not have moved on to benzos, which I feel are much worse than narcotics for what they can do to GABA and sleep cycles. Of course, narcotics can be very severe as we have seen as well.

I always tell people to slow taper, but you are right, sometimes you can go TOO slow. It really depends, so the 10% cut every two weeks recommendation should really be only guideline, not gospel. Too slow, too fast; one has to go by what they feel I suppose.

Thanks for the kind words towards howard and I. Glad you stopped in! :)
[QUOTE=no patience][SIZE=3]hi howard i actually did by a pill cutter it was getting pretty annoying with my steak knife lol i did'nt realize they made wafers i actually read also that klonopin for some people had to be made into special sizes in order for them to wean off guess they were not to prepared like they say some drs are good at prescribing but not w/ding there patients is that why they made the wafer ? yeah i also read in the ahton manual that valium was easier to taper from than klonopin thanks for all that you share it makes me one step closer to benzo knoweledge which i new nothing about until your hard hitting response and i thank you for that thanks howard thinking of you[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Kayleigh,

I can help with suggestions with tapering, am an old hat at it now. For one thing, forget the steak knife. In fact, you may consider giving it a rest for a few weeks and see how you do at the 1 mg a day. When ready to taper that, it is going to be very difficult to taper Klonopin with the .5 mg pills. Tried that... I would not bother slicing over edges, etc. Tapering needs to be systematic while still flexible, and the cuts, as exact as possible. I know you like what the K does for you, and I would be the first to call these excellent drugs if it were not for the significant tolerance/addiction risks and the potential for a horrific withdrawal syndrome. I was very pleased with benzos, until, you know the story...





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