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[QUOTE=howard678]I do not know what to say ladies, other than I am not on enough Valium to keep my BP and pulse rate off the high end, am I well over due for a cut. As to the drug switching, I give many docs the benefit of the doubt. It is their job to try and relieve suffering. Ignorant in some circumstances, surely, devious, rarely I think.

Some like myself need to work. This may mean trying supplemental meds or abandoning the taper. That or joins the ranks of the homebound and wait on the evictions notices and re-po men. And let me tell you, the world will not be concerned in the least. People are mostly concerned about themselves. And as to those that do care, other than the few on the net that understand, do not believe me. They think it`s all psychological. Partly maybe, far from all. Mise and Jennita, the old pros at this. Please jump in. Want to hear what you have to say.[/QUOTE]

Howard, first of all, don't count on things like supplemental meds or abandoning the taper to keep you in the work force. At some point, meds either fail or start more problems with your health. I know of one woman who is bedridden after ten years on this or that med for what started out as mild depression. Her husband is up to his eyeballs in medical bills and will no doubt have to sell their house. He says in the last ten years, seems she has only gotton worse instead of better with all the meds and hospitals. This is not an internet hearsay story I got off the internet, because I know of this woman thru my mother-in-law who was a collegue of the woman's husband. Oh, yes, now the husband is depressed....I wonder why....

I'm just trying to point out that you may not have a guarentee, with meds, of being someone who will always be able to work thanks to meds, because I know many people on these boards and others who cannot work and they are on meds. THeir condition has deteriorated, or simply not gotten better, or was better then the meds quit working and they are at square one again. THis is not the story of only benzos but other psych meds like AD's.

I don't mean to tell you not to try whatever you can to stay gainfully employed...I understand it's important....nobody wants to be poor or on the street. But I'm just saying don't get your hopes up that changing your course on this will solve the problem of whether or not you will be able to keep working.

On a hopeful note, I do know some people who managed to stay employed despite withdrawals. Not everyone loses their jobs because of this, howard, I doubt you will because you've managed all these years, even in light of past insomnia issues. That alone takes great determination! I think you are the type of person capable of getting through this withdrawal, job still intact!

I myself happened to be a stay-at-home-mom already, due to having children too young, not having money for college, and finding out minumum wage did not pay any more than the babysitter's/daycare fee. If I had a degree or technical training first, my job would have paid enough to make it worthwhile.

Yeh, I know, dumb move jumping into marriage and kids before 21 but I was smitten with the whole 50's family thing even though it was the 70's.......I know I would have done things differently looking back. Too late for that, but at least now I can go looking for a job in the fall and not worry about paying the babysitter, since my daughter is 21 and my son is 26!(although I think my son still could use a sitter.... :D )

ANd remember, just because you are due for a cut doesn't mean you have to do it right this second! You could wait a few extra days or even weeks....this may give your brain extra time for adjustment and things could start to settle down enough then to cut again. Taking a bit more time won't hurt a thing and may help the situation. I know it isn't medication, but won't you try a little chammomile tea and see if it helps calm you a bit. You could drink it all day and it wouldn't hurt you. You might have to pee alot though. ;)

If you continue to have high BP, if it is in dangerous levels, best to consult your doc on perhaps taking a mild BP lowering medication. You do want to watch out for your health during this.

Be patient. Keep in touch.
[QUOTE=howard678]I do not know what to say ladies, other than I am not on enough Valium to keep my BP and pulse rate off the high end, am I well over due for a cut. As to the drug switching, I give many docs the benefit of the doubt. It is their job to try and relieve suffering. Ignorant in some circumstances, surely, devious, rarely I think.

Some like myself need to work. This may mean trying supplemental meds or abandoning the taper. That or joins the ranks of the homebound and wait on the evictions notices and re-po men. And let me tell you, the world will not be concerned in the least. People are mostly concerned about themselves. And as to those that do care, other than the few on the net that understand, do not believe me. They think it`s all psychological. Partly maybe, far from all. Mise and Jennita, the old pros at this. Please jump in. Want to hear what you have to say.[/QUOTE]
hi howard jennita mentioned chamomile tea i drank that and also i've taking a vitamin b complex i dont know how you feel about vitamins but they have helped me considerable in the anxiety department you say the world doesnt care but i do you have been there for me and i'm not experienced in benzo w/d but i did go through a nightmare myself and do understand some of your symptoms i just want to support and help you in anyway i can ok like jennita (i think it was her) if you have to wait on your cut that is ok i've been there when you want to give up because it's just affecting you're life so much but you made it this far i know i'm not in your shoes but i've been in the situation where you just want to throw in the towel almost 4 months off methadone i still think of just saying doc please put me back on it so i can achieve (if this is what you want to call it) normal function i know people believe opiates are a very quick recovery but i'm still suffering but i won't go back i know you're probably just having a moment where you're saying i just want this over that's why i posted when does it end but in the long run you'll see that getting off these is the best thing to do i wish you well howard you've been so strong and you still are have you mentioned to your doc that you're suffering you said he was pretty great so he will know what you need hugs to you howard kelleigh :angel:
[QUOTE=howard678]Mise and Jennita,

Mise I thought (could have misread one of your posts) it was more than the politics that you did not agree with at that site, but also the staunch ant-auxillary meds, herbal remedies, etc. stance. People are not allowed to even discuss such things. Here they, unapologetically, part company with Ashton. This while talking about things like shaking for a month, and "could it be the cooked foods I ate?," is perfectly allowed.

They also have little belief in mental illness, this even though all societies since the beginning of history have had an abundance of the insane. I was told there that these are mostly "spiritual problems" but procelytizing is forbidden and there is no exorcism services offered. I am being real, not sarcastic. I personally have no mental illness history, but how many are told, people they do not know from Adam, to get off all their meds? This is perhaps to the real peril of the sufferer, like all ones prior issues will magically go away with a slow Valium taper...

I agree it is best to get through this without extra meds. I was fine enough before any meds. However, I have had long periods of rapid heartbeat and high BP, accompanied by feelings of dizziness. My symptoms also include muscle tightness, stabbing pains (not severe), and electric sensations. And I do have some very important work to do this summer. This all is why I have sat at this dose, 12.5. Yet I am cutting tonight, and Jennita yes, I can smoke one less cigarette day and cut down on sugar. Nonetheless, it is dangerous for a man my age to go around with high BP and rapid heartbeat. I am not real big on the idea of getting "through" this in a casket in order to adhere to an internet ideology that has spawned from yet departed from Heather Ashton.

What is the problem with beta blockers? I know people that have taken them for years with no problems and they have been life savers. They hold down heart rates and BP, and did in my case. But I do not like a couple of the side effects. I got these after, once again, talking the doc out of the AD. But if the AD gets one through the Valium taper and withdrawal, still functioning and working when one very much needs to, why not? The AD would have to be tapered but these withdrawals are by most reports I have read are less severe, and ADs seem much less prone to produce tolerance than benzos. Nonetheless, if this can be done "all natural" I am all for it. That is my preference. Thanks again. Guess you can tell I`m feeling a bit better tonight. :-)

P.S. As to the question, are my withdrawal symptoms tolerable? No, High BP and pulse rates for extended periods is not tolerable. Such can cause permanent organ damage, and when I am in one of these epiosodes, I cannot function.[/QUOTE]

You brought up the question about AD's "getting one through a Valium taper, then why not"..... well, what I was trying to convey earlier is that AD's are not guarenteed to get anyone thru a taper, and sometimes could cause delay in the brain getting back to a normal function. It's trying to regain itself but then another onslaught of more chemicals could confuse things.

Alot of people have gotten no or only a short spell of relief, only to have it come back full force. One guy, who was singing the praises of trazadone helping him after getting off klonopin, found it to quickly lose effect and he ended up in a hospital from exhaustion. He relyed on it to help him sleep but the sleep worsened very quickly after the intial help. Last I heard, he took up taking Xanax and wasn't heard from again. Don't know what happened to him.

All I am saying is, getting on the road of drugs may not end up being temporary as there seems to be a domino effect. Mine was a sort of domino effect.... that's how I know. THe promise of each med to "solve the problem" only led to more problems later on, relying and hoping on the next med to be the final one. Sometimes, there is no final one.

It's a merry-go-round which will not stop spinning; only way off is to jump off...you may get bruises and scrapes, but they will heal and you don't have to spin endlessly anymore.

If you want to try an AD, that's ok because I understand the need for hope. I certainly can't blame anyone for trying to find relief in a pill; I did the same thing myself, trusting the doctors and hoping they were right. So I willingly took pill after pill; filled new prescription after new one. I finally realized one day, it just wasn't working for me.

As far as blood pressure, well, you will just have to monitor it close and obtain doctors' advice on that one. You can maybe help it a bit with the tea and some milk; maybe some relaxation tapes or exercises. Mild exercise will strengthen the heart, regulate it better and hold the pressure.

I did read something interesting on the internet about magnesium's effect on blood pressure; seems to help lower it. I can't confirm it personally for sure; doubt it's harmful to try the supplement and see if it helps. Worth a shot? If you try it, let me know if there is any change.

At any rate, if it continues to be too high, you may have to resort to those beta blockers. I do believe in treating life-threating health conditions, whether it's benzo caused or not isn't really the issue....you don't want to end up with stroke or heart attack...so keep a close check on it and consult with your doctor, ok?

Glad you at least are feeling a bit better tonight...perhaps positive changes are on the horizon....
Hello again

(Hoots lassies, and top o' the mornin' to ye Howard)
Jennita - well - a bit of a mongrel here - an Irish/Scottish mongrel here - and a rotweiller to boot! LOLOL) Just DON'T call me English!! You have been warned! LOL
Where do you three hail from?

Well Howard - there is no getting anything past you - hadn't realised you had remembered earlier statements of mine about another place. Yep - you have it spot on. I cannot accept the stupid attitude to medics in general and to mental illness either. If you have been in that room you will know for yourself that there appear to be some very mentally ill people? Guessing, of course. But every blight on the landscape cannot be blamed on benzos. On the other hand - I think that some of the arguments relating to the spiritual dimension of man is true - I think as society becomes more and more secular, then we loose something - something of our real humanity - in a spiritual dimension. But - I agree too, that the appalling attitude not to allow debate at all that goes against "mein fuhrer's" views is totally counterproductive - leaving the feeling of real "cult" status? And there is nothing you can do to combat a mod with a delete and ban button! LOLOL
Poor Prof Ashton - I often wonder if she knows how that "net ideology spawned" from her work is as it is? She is still very active here - lobbying always - writing and receiving replies from our Health Minister .................very positive and chipping away all the time. And it is working. Benzos is a real hot topic here now. You wont find it easy to find a young doctor to prescribe any of them here now - the older generation of course seem to stick to old practices. I doubt she ever looks at that place. Her original acolyte I think is not the person he once was.
Enough of that.......

You obviously have all the thought processes functioning rationally and I cannot criticise anything you say about your own condition. You have great self knowledge and will figure your own way through this - quite obviously.

Have to say though that I agree with Jennita and this whole thing about taking drugs to help against other drugs......what she calls the domino effect.........I find it - personally - dead dodgy! To me it defies logic but Jennita is dead right about giving people hope - but is it real hope or just another attempt by the doctor at a quick term solution (deal with the long term results later - once we are out of this particular mess?) I know I have discussed this with doctors who shout me down - but they have never been on a benzo taper. But for the most part British doctors do regard their American counterparts as pill pushers. I dont mean in any way to be offensive - just observant. You have a very very pill oriented society - with a pill as a quick fix for everything - even now to include obesity?? LOL But I am no medic and so I will not say other than that I personally would refuse to go down that road. (I would not of course include anyone with clinical depression in this statement). Also I would question the addictive propensities(and other side effects) of anti-deps. Here - Seroxat is now banned for under 18s. Apparently it may induce feelings which drive people to suicide. But why 18? There has been further restriction now too on its being prescribed to those over 18. I rather get the feeling that Govt wish it had never arrived on our shores. Prozac too gets a very bad press. But - I know that there must me other a/ds which are effective and not dangerous. But I am loathe to just accept what a doctor tells me now about newer drugs (I am the daughter of a doctor, and the mother of a young doctor - who incidentally had never heard of xanax - it is not prescribed here in UK as far as I know - certainly not by general practitioners - perhaps shrinks - I just dont know) - especially relatively new drugs. I very much doubt that enough research has really been done on these - and in truth we are probably the guinea pigs for the latest batch. Call me cynical?
Also too - you yourself talk of organ damage re high BP. There has to be certain amount of "stress" if not damage to organs like the liver/kidneys and gut when taking any drug - so why add more?

Yes - your BP position clearly worries you and you will have to find an answer to that. You misunderstand when I talked of beta blockers - I certainly did not mean that there was anything wrong with them - they seem to be most effective - but there are unpleasant side effects which some people seem not to be able to tolerate. I know of a recovering alcoholic (78 yrs of age and about 35 years of sobriety) being put on them and feeling "euphoric" and immediately quit - he reckoned it was too dangerous for him................... might eventually lead him back to the dreaded alcohol. You, yourself, had mentioned that they had a couple of side effects which you didnt like................. But - Howard - this is your life, your health and your decision and for sure no-one wants to see you exiting in a coffin at this point in your life! You will have to work it out with your doctor - but work it out you must or you will doubt the end result of coming off valium? A guess again. But there is no doubt that you are close to being free of benzos - so guard that carefully and do whatever you have to do to hang on to that. There is always a solution.

Another wee anecdotal story - there was a member of another place (who left!) who was perhaps in much the same position as yourself. He is in his 40s, at the height of his career, just accepting too another promotion............ when we parted company he was on your sort of dose - I think it was actually 15 mg that he had managed to get down to from a starting point of 30. Everytime he made a cut he could predict how he would feel and when the withdrawals would kick in - so he worked out the day of the week - every fortnight to make his cut so that the worse coincided with a w/e and a Monday. When asked how he was feeling he would always tell me that he was OK - he knew that he would have a 'bad case of flu' for the next few months and having accepted that he could carry on. (Now - I am dead certain he was just being a "man", I think he was indeed suffering much more than he admitted - but he had rationalised the whole thing............... well - as far as I could tell!) But the point of this ramble is to tell you that he dropped me an email a few months back when he finally broke free - almost bang on his own target.
You'll do this too, Howard. No doubts about it. You clearly are not the kind of personality who would wish to remain "controlled" by benzos. And again......... I know I sound boring.............. you have the worst over - the prize is in sight for you.
What Jennita offers as advice on smoking, sugar, exercise etc I concur with too. All factors too in your well-being - especially if you are facing up to some hard work (in the occupation sense) in the next few months.
BTW - almost fogot to ask - when did this problem of high BP arise? During taper? Or has it been an issue for a while?
I note how you describe your symptoms - and it reads as though it could have been taken out of Ashton's Manual. Does that reassure you in any way?

So - you have to work, you cannot drop out, you have to continue on your taper, you cannot give up..................... focus on these - work out a reasonable approach to the BP problem......
Wishing you all the best.
Any of this make any sense?
Speak again
Mise

PS - Hi Kelleigh - hope you are well? Please just jump in and add to the discussions if you feel like it?
[QUOTE=mise ata ann]Hello again

(Hoots lassies, and top o' the mornin' to ye Howard)
Jennita - well - a bit of a mongrel here - an Irish/Scottish mongrel here - and a rotweiller to boot! LOLOL) Just DON'T call me English!! You have been warned! LOL
Where do you three hail from?

Well Howard - there is no getting anything past you - hadn't realised you had remembered earlier statements of mine about another place. Yep - you have it spot on. I cannot accept the stupid attitude to medics in general and to mental illness either. If you have been in that room you will know for yourself that there appear to be some very mentally ill people? Guessing, of course. But every blight on the landscape cannot be blamed on benzos. On the other hand - I think that some of the arguments relating to the spiritual dimension of man is true - I think as society becomes more and more secular, then we loose something - something of our real humanity - in a spiritual dimension. But - I agree too, that the appalling attitude not to allow debate at all that goes against "mein fuhrer's" views is totally counterproductive - leaving the feeling of real "cult" status? And there is nothing you can do to combat a mod with a delete and ban button! LOLOL
Poor Prof Ashton - I often wonder if she knows how that "net ideology spawned" from her work is as it is? She is still very active here - lobbying always - writing and receiving replies from our Health Minister .................very positive and chipping away all the time. And it is working. Benzos is a real hot topic here now. You wont find it easy to find a young doctor to prescribe any of them here now - the older generation of course seem to stick to old practices. I doubt she ever looks at that place. Her original acolyte I think is not the person he once was.
Enough of that.......

You obviously have all the thought processes functioning rationally and I cannot criticise anything you say about your own condition. You have great self knowledge and will figure your own way through this - quite obviously.

Have to say though that I agree with Jennita and this whole thing about taking drugs to help against other drugs......what she calls the domino effect.........I find it - personally - dead dodgy! To me it defies logic but Jennita is dead right about giving people hope - but is it real hope or just another attempt by the doctor at a quick term solution (deal with the long term results later - once we are out of this particular mess?) I know I have discussed this with doctors who shout me down - but they have never been on a benzo taper. But for the most part British doctors do regard their American counterparts as pill pushers. I dont mean in any way to be offensive - just observant. You have a very very pill oriented society - with a pill as a quick fix for everything - even now to include obesity?? LOL But I am no medic and so I will not say other than that I personally would refuse to go down that road. (I would not of course include anyone with clinical depression in this statement). Also I would question the addictive propensities(and other side effects) of anti-deps. Here - Seroxat is now banned for under 18s. Apparently it may induce feelings which drive people to suicide. But why 18? There has been further restriction now too on its being prescribed to those over 18. I rather get the feeling that Govt wish it had never arrived on our shores. Prozac too gets a very bad press. But - I know that there must me other a/ds which are effective and not dangerous. But I am loathe to just accept what a doctor tells me now about newer drugs (I am the daughter of a doctor, and the mother of a young doctor - who incidentally had never heard of xanax - it is not prescribed here in UK as far as I know - certainly not by general practitioners - perhaps shrinks - I just dont know) - especially relatively new drugs. I very much doubt that enough research has really been done on these - and in truth we are probably the guinea pigs for the latest batch. Call me cynical?
Also too - you yourself talk of organ damage re high BP. There has to be certain amount of "stress" if not damage to organs like the liver/kidneys and gut when taking any drug - so why add more?

Yes - your BP position clearly worries you and you will have to find an answer to that. You misunderstand when I talked of beta blockers - I certainly did not mean that there was anything wrong with them - they seem to be most effective - but there are unpleasant side effects which some people seem not to be able to tolerate. I know of a recovering alcoholic (78 yrs of age and about 35 years of sobriety) being put on them and feeling "euphoric" and immediately quit - he reckoned it was too dangerous for him................... might eventually lead him back to the dreaded alcohol. You, yourself, had mentioned that they had a couple of side effects which you didnt like................. But - Howard - this is your life, your health and your decision and for sure no-one wants to see you exiting in a coffin at this point in your life! You will have to work it out with your doctor - but work it out you must or you will doubt the end result of coming off valium? A guess again. But there is no doubt that you are close to being free of benzos - so guard that carefully and do whatever you have to do to hang on to that. There is always a solution.

Another wee anecdotal story - there was a member of another place (who left!) who was perhaps in much the same position as yourself. He is in his 40s, at the height of his career, just accepting too another promotion............ when we parted company he was on your sort of dose - I think it was actually 15 mg that he had managed to get down to from a starting point of 30. Everytime he made a cut he could predict how he would feel and when the withdrawals would kick in - so he worked out the day of the week - every fortnight to make his cut so that the worse coincided with a w/e and a Monday. When asked how he was feeling he would always tell me that he was OK - he knew that he would have a 'bad case of flu' for the next few months and having accepted that he could carry on. (Now - I am dead certain he was just being a "man", I think he was indeed suffering much more than he admitted - but he had rationalised the whole thing............... well - as far as I could tell!) But the point of this ramble is to tell you that he dropped me an email a few months back when he finally broke free - almost bang on his own target.
You'll do this too, Howard. No doubts about it. You clearly are not the kind of personality who would wish to remain "controlled" by benzos. And again......... I know I sound boring.............. you have the worst over - the prize is in sight for you.
What Jennita offers as advice on smoking, sugar, exercise etc I concur with too. All factors too in your well-being - especially if you are facing up to some hard work (in the occupation sense) in the next few months.
BTW - almost fogot to ask - when did this problem of high BP arise? During taper? Or has it been an issue for a while?
I note how you describe your symptoms - and it reads as though it could have been taken out of Ashton's Manual. Does that reassure you in any way?

So - you have to work, you cannot drop out, you have to continue on your taper, you cannot give up..................... focus on these - work out a reasonable approach to the BP problem......
Wishing you all the best.
Any of this make any sense?
Speak again
Mise

PS - Hi Kelleigh - hope you are well? Please just jump in and add to the discussions if you feel like it?[/QUOTE]
hi mise i enjoy reading all your posts i 'm not that familiar in the benzo area but you 3 have certainly enlightened me i just feel so bad for howard he has helped me considerably and i feel like there is nothing i can do for him you and jennita are definitly the ones to convince him not to give up i'll never forget his first post to me methadone to klonopin thats like jumping from the frying pan into the fire and that's how i became aware of just how bad these drugs were i wish i could say iwasnt on ssris or klonopin i definitly took the wrong route but i'm aiming for a med free life one day you all are so knowledgable in this area thats why i don't really say much other then just trying to give howard support it's so hard when you can only type and not be there to try and help the person through it but you and jennita are doing a wonderful job i wish i was more aware of the effects of benzos before i started taking them i had no idea they were so evil until i read all 3 of your posts thanks for all the information you all have opened my eyes just through your conversations thanks mise your a good person and make so much sense
[QUOTE=mise ata ann]Hello again

(Hoots lassies, and top o' the mornin' to ye Howard)
Jennita - well - a bit of a mongrel here - an Irish/Scottish mongrel here - and a rotweiller to boot! LOLOL) Just DON'T call me English!! You have been warned! LOL
Where do you three hail from?

Well Howard - there is no getting anything past you - hadn't realised you had remembered earlier statements of mine about another place. Yep - you have it spot on. I cannot accept the stupid attitude to medics in general and to mental illness either. If you have been in that room you will know for yourself that there appear to be some very mentally ill people? Guessing, of course. But every blight on the landscape cannot be blamed on benzos. On the other hand - I think that some of the arguments relating to the spiritual dimension of man is true - I think as society becomes more and more secular, then we loose something - something of our real humanity - in a spiritual dimension. But - I agree too, that the appalling attitude not to allow debate at all that goes against "mein fuhrer's" views is totally counterproductive - leaving the feeling of real "cult" status? And there is nothing you can do to combat a mod with a delete and ban button! LOLOL
Poor Prof Ashton - I often wonder if she knows how that "net ideology spawned" from her work is as it is? She is still very active here - lobbying always - writing and receiving replies from our Health Minister .................very positive and chipping away all the time. And it is working. Benzos is a real hot topic here now. You wont find it easy to find a young doctor to prescribe any of them here now - the older generation of course seem to stick to old practices. I doubt she ever looks at that place. Her original acolyte I think is not the person he once was.
Enough of that.......

You obviously have all the thought processes functioning rationally and I cannot criticise anything you say about your own condition. You have great self knowledge and will figure your own way through this - quite obviously.

Have to say though that I agree with Jennita and this whole thing about taking drugs to help against other drugs......what she calls the domino effect.........I find it - personally - dead dodgy! To me it defies logic but Jennita is dead right about giving people hope - but is it real hope or just another attempt by the doctor at a quick term solution (deal with the long term results later - once we are out of this particular mess?) I know I have discussed this with doctors who shout me down - but they have never been on a benzo taper. But for the most part British doctors do regard their American counterparts as pill pushers. I dont mean in any way to be offensive - just observant. You have a very very pill oriented society - with a pill as a quick fix for everything - even now to include obesity?? LOL But I am no medic and so I will not say other than that I personally would refuse to go down that road. (I would not of course include anyone with clinical depression in this statement). Also I would question the addictive propensities(and other side effects) of anti-deps. Here - Seroxat is now banned for under 18s. Apparently it may induce feelings which drive people to suicide. But why 18? There has been further restriction now too on its being prescribed to those over 18. I rather get the feeling that Govt wish it had never arrived on our shores. Prozac too gets a very bad press. But - I know that there must me other a/ds which are effective and not dangerous. But I am loathe to just accept what a doctor tells me now about newer drugs (I am the daughter of a doctor, and the mother of a young doctor - who incidentally had never heard of xanax - it is not prescribed here in UK as far as I know - certainly not by general practitioners - perhaps shrinks - I just dont know) - especially relatively new drugs. I very much doubt that enough research has really been done on these - and in truth we are probably the guinea pigs for the latest batch. Call me cynical?
Also too - you yourself talk of organ damage re high BP. There has to be certain amount of "stress" if not damage to organs like the liver/kidneys and gut when taking any drug - so why add more?

Yes - your BP position clearly worries you and you will have to find an answer to that. You misunderstand when I talked of beta blockers - I certainly did not mean that there was anything wrong with them - they seem to be most effective - but there are unpleasant side effects which some people seem not to be able to tolerate. I know of a recovering alcoholic (78 yrs of age and about 35 years of sobriety) being put on them and feeling "euphoric" and immediately quit - he reckoned it was too dangerous for him................... might eventually lead him back to the dreaded alcohol. You, yourself, had mentioned that they had a couple of side effects which you didnt like................. But - Howard - this is your life, your health and your decision and for sure no-one wants to see you exiting in a coffin at this point in your life! You will have to work it out with your doctor - but work it out you must or you will doubt the end result of coming off valium? A guess again. But there is no doubt that you are close to being free of benzos - so guard that carefully and do whatever you have to do to hang on to that. There is always a solution.

Another wee anecdotal story - there was a member of another place (who left!) who was perhaps in much the same position as yourself. He is in his 40s, at the height of his career, just accepting too another promotion............ when we parted company he was on your sort of dose - I think it was actually 15 mg that he had managed to get down to from a starting point of 30. Everytime he made a cut he could predict how he would feel and when the withdrawals would kick in - so he worked out the day of the week - every fortnight to make his cut so that the worse coincided with a w/e and a Monday. When asked how he was feeling he would always tell me that he was OK - he knew that he would have a 'bad case of flu' for the next few months and having accepted that he could carry on. (Now - I am dead certain he was just being a "man", I think he was indeed suffering much more than he admitted - but he had rationalised the whole thing............... well - as far as I could tell!) But the point of this ramble is to tell you that he dropped me an email a few months back when he finally broke free - almost bang on his own target.
You'll do this too, Howard. No doubts about it. You clearly are not the kind of personality who would wish to remain "controlled" by benzos. And again......... I know I sound boring.............. you have the worst over - the prize is in sight for you.
What Jennita offers as advice on smoking, sugar, exercise etc I concur with too. All factors too in your well-being - especially if you are facing up to some hard work (in the occupation sense) in the next few months.
BTW - almost fogot to ask - when did this problem of high BP arise? During taper? Or has it been an issue for a while?
I note how you describe your symptoms - and it reads as though it could have been taken out of Ashton's Manual. Does that reassure you in any way?

So - you have to work, you cannot drop out, you have to continue on your taper, you cannot give up..................... focus on these - work out a reasonable approach to the BP problem......
Wishing you all the best.
Any of this make any sense?
Speak again
Mise

PS - Hi Kelleigh - hope you are well? Please just jump in and add to the discussions if you feel like it?[/QUOTE]

Mise, well, I stilll like the English, but hey, my daughter and I are also big fans of the Irish; Colin Farrell is a fav in our house and we can't help ourselves that we love such parodies as "Top o' the Mornin'" they do on Saturday Night live. My daughter likes the music too, a friend of hers has a dad who's in an Irish band she enjoyed.

And of course, we love those accents too!! I admit, though, I do have a very hard time telling the difference in the Scotts and Irish accents. At least in your case, you're both so we can't go wrong.

My mom has both Irish and English in her ancestory. My dad is 100% pure Italian. What a combo, eh? When I get mad, we don't know if it's the Irish or Italian temperment to blame ;) I think Italians prefer to speak of it as "passion" not anger...hmmmm...that does sound better!

I'm fairly easy going, however, after my dad, not typically an angry person unless there is good reason. My dad ran after someone with a gun once when the guy robbed his friends' new bar....yikes. If you knew my dad, you'd be shocked at that story. Well, there was good reason for anger that day, or shall we say, my dad was "passionate" about catching the man who did some wrong-doing to his friend. The robber got away, good thing because he also had a gun!!!(for the robbery) and could have shot my dad. In those days, not many police around to arrive quickly at the scene.

My mom was raised in Tennessee, all I have to say is, don't let someone who hails from there get angry with you....wow. Are you familiar with the story of the Hatfields and the McCoys....the lengendary families in Tennesee who had on-going feuding for years and years??

Well, needless to say, my dad has had alot of patience with my mom....but she's great to have in your corner when a fight comes about!!

I was born in Chicago, Illinois like my dad, but my parents moved to California when I was two so this is where I consider myself from.

Well, enough about all that. I am delighted to hear Prof. Ashton is still so active at her age on the benzo issues there in the UK. What dedication!
Hello Howard

Great to hear you sounding cheerier!

Surely the worst is really over for you now? In the whole dreadful affair? You recognised your problem, got informed, took action and got under way on your taper...... You have come down from 25 mg to 12.5 mg in the safest and best way possible and must have the best prognosis from here on in? Don't you think that you can take a pat on the back and agree that you have done a HUGE amount? Now - you just have to finish the job. "Any boy can start a job, but it takes a man to finnish one!" LOLOL!
As for the final parting.........? What's that? Don't even entertain the idea. You are doing great - just continue - take it on a daily basis - sleep - get up the next day and do the same again....... you know the drill! I suspect that the end of taper for the majority of "reasonably" normal people is really unexceptional. You will just go lower and lower and one day when you are at 1 mg or .5 mg - whichever you are most comfortable with you will just stop. End of story! You will then throw away any extra valium - a wonderful ceremony - you may decide the details of the particular experience!!!! But you will enjoy. Never look back - don't be negative - one foot in front of the other....... (cant think of any more cliches for the moment - hope you will forgive me these corny ones - but they do so fit the situation!!! LOL)
If you experience any more "rocks" on the road - you know what to do - ease up - take a bit longer - make a smaller cut - but don't ever lose hope because you are so close now. "Eyes on the prize"!
I have asked some other benzo recoverer friends who have been off rather longer than myself and who had probs with BP for their comments. I will copy them to you if you are interested altho I think you seem to have that all covered now?
Hope this cut is kind to you! Hopefully a .5 mg cut will be okay? Keep telling us how it is proceeding - there is still lots of really anecdotal help and advice for any problems you might still hit along the road. Comprehensive cover you have here!! LOL Take heart - you are doing almost a perfect classical Ashton! (PCA? LOL)

Jennita - I just cannot tell you how heartened I am by your post above. How on earth did generations before us cope with hormones, headaches, untidiness, lonliness, depression, boredom ........ without recourse to pills! The whole human race should really be extinct? LOL But the US of A really does lead the world in its consumptive abilities............ from natural resources like petroleum and gas ............to food and to pills........................ Personally I find it utterly appalling and downright unacceptable in a civilised society. What on earth has happened to people? Life just happens. (I exclude all those who are truly ill or depressed of course. And I include in "ill" - addiction)
It's so refreshing to see someone stating it in forums like this. And its a perfectly valid stance to take. But not a popular one I suspect!

Keyleigh - you have lots of insight now - you have lots of info - just keep steady - you will know when the time is right to make any decisions.................I know nothing of methadone - but Howard clearly will keep you right!

Thanks to you all for uplifting posts! You have helped me so much this evening................ upbeat and positive even in the midst of anguish!

ttfn
Mise





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