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i don't mean to be an ******* here, since i'm sure those statements by those doctors are true for a lot of people - maybe even most - but that was NEVER the case for me. I have been on benzos - klon, xanax, ambien for months at a time and i have felt very mild withdrawals symptoms as opposed to the ones mentioned above and so often on this board - but that is not to diminish the experiences of those who have felt the opposite. however i have also been oc (crushed, snorted, heated and shot up), as well as hundreds of percocets, and vicodins/lortabs for just as long of a time and the withdrawal symptoms from the opiates - FOR ME - is much worse. stereotypes of all kinds just plain suck, and while there is no doubt this doctor and whoever that ashton guy is, are telling what they have seen, experienced and know; and their opinion should be respected, they also should be taken with a grain of salt (like any doctors opinion, be it on benzo withdrawal or that of other drugs - however that is not to say all doctors shouldn't be listened to - that's why we go to them right? we presume they can help us by having more knowledge on whatever is bothering us than we do - unfortunatey some don't). i believe - especially when [B]blanket[/B] statements are made about the w/d from anything, such as h to valium to methadone to crank/meth to vicodin or percocets - to even alcohol, as being the worst/hardest/mostpainful/awful/etc.... to withdraw from. as i said, i am sure w/d from benzos are terrible, and even the worst, for a lot of people or it wouldn't be written about so much on this board, but i think we can all agree [I]it doesn't matter what is the hardest drug to get off of, all that matters is getting of it. and the hardship in dealing with going through the withdrawls - from whatever chemical - is incredibly tough.[/I]

i just have seen people say this drug or that drug is the most difficult to get of off (from h to klonopin) on this board for so long but the real truth of the matter is, everyone is different, just as everyone's withdrawls experiences are different. and all addicts experiences should be respected because we all have been through hell with whatever drug, at one point or another. again, sorry to be an *** if i am - i sure don't want to piss anyone off or disrespect what they went or are going through - i just hate hearing the often repeated posts here that go something like "...well this is harder to get off of than this", or "this is the absolute hardest drug to withdraw from bar none."

the only blanket statement i agree with is that - for me - is that drugs suck.

i am an addict and i have hurt myself (which i can deal with) and the ones that i love and care for (which i can't) way too much. for me, any addictive drug when not taken exactly as prescribed or only when absolutely needed - in other words not just to get 'high', is like taking an exit off the freeway straight to hell.

those who abuse them and/or are addicted to them (probably most everyone here), have most likely had an incredibly terrible time trying to stop no matter what substance they were on. i just wish that many people could see that various people go through various symptoms when trying to stop different drugs. and again, it doesn't really matter what the hardest is. in the end, it only matters about getting clean and staying clean. sure the withdrawals are awful. but the hardest part isn't getting through them, it's staying off them -even when we all know better.

i've withdrawn from many different drugs and, at least for me, life sucks coming off of any of them. i just hope, at some point, even going to meetings and couseling etc.. like i am now, i won't turn off the freeway onto that exit again.
i'm not the hugest "Matrix" fan, but there is a quote in that movie where that girl says to Neo in the car - and i'm sure i'll screw it up - but it is something like, "don't go down that road Neo, you've been down it before and you know where it ends."
I just want to stop going down that road, because no matter what drug it ends with, they all provide pain, suffering and they all - in one way or another - are hell to get off of.
thanks for reading.

grey
[QUOTE=greymatter]i don't mean to be an ******* here, since i'm sure those statements by those doctors are true for a lot of people - maybe even most - but that was NEVER the case for me. I have been on benzos - klon, xanax, ambien for months at a time and i have felt very mild withdrawals symptoms as opposed to the ones mentioned above and so often on this board - but that is not to diminish the experiences of those who have felt the opposite. however i have also been oc (crushed, snorted, heated and shot up), as well as hundreds of percocets, and vicodins/lortabs for just as long of a time and the withdrawal symptoms from the opiates - FOR ME - is much worse. stereotypes of all kinds just plain suck, and while there is no doubt this doctor and whoever that ashton guy is, are telling what they have seen, experienced and know; and their opinion should be respected, they also should be taken with a grain of salt (like any doctors opinion, be it on benzo withdrawal or that of other drugs - however that is not to say all doctors shouldn't be listened to - that's why we go to them right? we presume they can help us by having more knowledge on whatever is bothering us than we do - unfortunatey some don't). i believe - especially when [B]blanket[/B] statements are made about the w/d from anything, such as h to valium to methadone to crank/meth to vicodin or percocets - to even alcohol, as being the worst/hardest/mostpainful/awful/etc.... to withdraw from. as i said, i am sure w/d from benzos are terrible, and even the worst, for a lot of people or it wouldn't be written about so much on this board, but i think we can all agree [I]it doesn't matter what is the hardest drug to get off of, all that matters is getting of it. and the hardship in dealing with going through the withdrawls - from whatever chemical - is incredibly tough.[/I]

i just have seen people say this drug or that drug is the most difficult to get of off (from h to klonopin) on this board for so long but the real truth of the matter is, everyone is different, just as everyone's withdrawls experiences are different. and all addicts experiences should be respected because we all have been through hell with whatever drug, at one point or another. again, sorry to be an *** if i am - i sure don't want to piss anyone off or disrespect what they went or are going through - i just hate hearing the often repeated posts here that go something like "...well this is harder to get off of than this", or "this is the absolute hardest drug to withdraw from bar none."

the only blanket statement i agree with is that - for me - is that drugs suck.

i am an addict and i have hurt myself (which i can deal with) and the ones that i love and care for (which i can't) way too much. for me, any addictive drug when not taken exactly as prescribed or only when absolutely needed - in other words not just to get 'high', is like taking an exit off the freeway straight to hell.

those who abuse them and/or are addicted to them (probably most everyone here), have most likely had an incredibly terrible time trying to stop no matter what substance they were on. i just wish that many people could see that various people go through various symptoms when trying to stop different drugs. and again, it doesn't really matter what the hardest is. in the end, it only matters about getting clean and staying clean. sure the withdrawals are awful. but the hardest part isn't getting through them, it's staying off them -even when we all know better.

i've withdrawn from many different drugs and, at least for me, life sucks coming off of any of them. i just hope, at some point, even going to meetings and couseling etc.. like i am now, i won't turn off the freeway onto that exit again.
i'm not the hugest "Matrix" fan, but there is a quote in that movie where that girl says to Neo in the car - and i'm sure i'll screw it up - but it is something like, "don't go down that road Neo, you've been down it before and you know where it ends."
I just want to stop going down that road, because no matter what drug it ends with, they all provide pain, suffering and they all - in one way or another - are hell to get off of.
thanks for reading.

grey[/QUOTE]
i'm not trying to make any waves i'm on klonopin right now tapered myself off nothing severe but my panic attacks came backand back on it i'm not all that experienced in the benzo department only what my friends howard and jennita have told me but i can tell you i have to agree with alot of what you are saying i came off 50 mgs of methadone and now 3 months almost 4 months later i'm still suffering not physically but physchologically i'm not trying to say one is worse then the other because i don't know but let me just say from experience coming off methadone was and still is a nightmare just to explain that coming off opiates is not a walk in the park to those who may think it's over in a week or so it's not i still suffer anxiety and feel like a part of me was taken with it i'm not trying to say that one is worse than the other but i just want people to know opiate w/d especially methadone which in some cases especially in methadone maintenance can take years to wean off of with w/d symptoms throughout it all i'm watching my sister go through that also she is a recovering heroin addict i know we all have are different w/ds and situations but lets be here to support each other i hope i don't upset any one but i just had to tell my story hugs to you all kelleigh :angel:
Howard
Just wanted to encourage you. I took 8 months to come off 2 mg ativan (20 mg valium). I believe Ashton too to be the authorative word on the subject. I understand that Jennita had prolonged symptoms post withdrawal? Well - after I took my final .5mg of valium - I did take a while longer to feel "up and running". The 3 months as stated by Ashton is prob about right I guess. My worst symptoms post taper were insomnia & lethargy -took 3 - 6 months for them to work themselves out. But, Howard, I think you really hit a chord when you talked of benzo withdrawal compared to say drink/opiates. People seem to do withdrawal time and time again with drink and with opiates? But I dont know of anyone (altho there must be some) who ever did more than one benzo taper. It is sooooooooo long and arduous that it would really take some forgetting? I cannot imagine (touch wood!) myself ever again being there. But, in here, time and time again you hear people talking of tapering off opiates again. It doesnt seem to matter how much you try to explain and warn about benzos - people have closed ears. Having talked at length about benzos and taking as prescribed as medication by the doctor and becoming addicted thro no fault of our own and certainly not by abusing - a poster above yet again says that he has never abused benzos! Its like talking to a brick wall!
Jennita and Howard - well done you two. Are we the only 3 in the world to successfully taper benzos?
Rosie - I know you are trying to slowly come off your K - take care and persevere and listen to Howard. (and Jennita) He is living the "hell" I have so often (obviously unsuccessfully) tried to warn of. But Rosie - maybe you are already there. Hope so and look forward to hearing how you are!
Love
Mise
[QUOTE=mise ata ann]Howard
Just wanted to encourage you. I took 8 months to come off 2 mg ativan (20 mg valium). I believe Ashton too to be the authorative word on the subject. I understand that Jennita had prolonged symptoms post withdrawal? Well - after I took my final .5mg of valium - I did take a while longer to feel "up and running". The 3 months as stated by Ashton is prob about right I guess. My worst symptoms post taper were insomnia & lethargy -took 3 - 6 months for them to work themselves out. But, Howard, I think you really hit a chord when you talked of benzo withdrawal compared to say drink/opiates. People seem to do withdrawal time and time again with drink and with opiates? But I dont know of anyone (altho there must be some) who ever did more than one benzo taper. It is sooooooooo long and arduous that it would really take some forgetting? I cannot imagine (touch wood!) myself ever again being there. But, in here, time and time again you hear people talking of tapering off opiates again. It doesnt seem to matter how much you try to explain and warn about benzos - people have closed ears. Having talked at length about benzos and taking as prescribed as medication by the doctor and becoming addicted thro no fault of our own and certainly not by abusing - a poster above yet again says that he has never abused benzos! Its like talking to a brick wall!
Jennita and Howard - well done you two. Are we the only 3 in the world to successfully taper benzos?
Rosie - I know you are trying to slowly come off your K - take care and persevere and listen to Howard. (and Jennita) He is living the "hell" I have so often (obviously unsuccessfully) tried to warn of. But Rosie - maybe you are already there. Hope so and look forward to hearing how you are!
Love
Mise[/QUOTE]
mise i give you howard and jennita so much credit like i said i am not really that experienced in the benzo department but all of what has been written is really frightening i'm on klonopin unfortunatly and i'm really scared i went through the worst methadone w/d and 4 months later still suffering and and i don't need another nightmare in my life methadone was enough i have an appt today with the dr prescribing me klonopin and lets just say i have a lot of questions for her you all must have suffered and still suffering an awful nightmare to be so persistant in trying to stop this madness i never abused my methadone either and still suffered pretty severly and still am i think i'm the same way to methadone that you are to benzos i want to stop people from taking it so they don't live through this horrific experience but i want to thank you for sharing your stories all 3 of you have really opened my eyes the widest they can be i'm so proud of you all for doing away with the evil keep posting ok even if you change one persons mind your doing your job thanks mise kelleigh
[QUOTE=mise ata ann]Howard
Just wanted to encourage you. I took 8 months to come off 2 mg ativan (20 mg valium). I believe Ashton too to be the authorative word on the subject. I understand that Jennita had prolonged symptoms post withdrawal? Well - after I took my final .5mg of valium - I did take a while longer to feel "up and running". The 3 months as stated by Ashton is prob about right I guess. My worst symptoms post taper were insomnia & lethargy -took 3 - 6 months for them to work themselves out. But, Howard, I think you really hit a chord when you talked of benzo withdrawal compared to say drink/opiates. People seem to do withdrawal time and time again with drink and with opiates? But I dont know of anyone (altho there must be some) who ever did more than one benzo taper. It is sooooooooo long and arduous that it would really take some forgetting? I cannot imagine (touch wood!) myself ever again being there. But, in here, time and time again you hear people talking of tapering off opiates again. It doesnt seem to matter how much you try to explain and warn about benzos - people have closed ears. Having talked at length about benzos and taking as prescribed as medication by the doctor and becoming addicted thro no fault of our own and certainly not by abusing - a poster above yet again says that he has never abused benzos! Its like talking to a brick wall!
Jennita and Howard - well done you two. Are we the only 3 in the world to successfully taper benzos?
Rosie - I know you are trying to slowly come off your K - take care and persevere and listen to Howard. (and Jennita) He is living the "hell" I have so often (obviously unsuccessfully) tried to warn of. But Rosie - maybe you are already there. Hope so and look forward to hearing how you are!
Love
Mise[/QUOTE]

Thanks a lot. I sure could live with lethargy and insomnia for 3 to 6 months. I am an old hat with insomnia, have had it for most of my adult life. Very often sleep has come only at the point of exhaustion. That is why I liked Xanax, it knocked me out with zero side effects. And I was an exception to Ashton`s rule. It worked great for over a year at the same dose, until, you know the rest of the story...
[QUOTE=mise ata ann]Howard
Just wanted to encourage you. I took 8 months to come off 2 mg ativan (20 mg valium). I believe Ashton too to be the authorative word on the subject. I understand that Jennita had prolonged symptoms post withdrawal? Well - after I took my final .5mg of valium - I did take a while longer to feel "up and running". The 3 months as stated by Ashton is prob about right I guess. My worst symptoms post taper were insomnia & lethargy -took 3 - 6 months for them to work themselves out. But, Howard, I think you really hit a chord when you talked of benzo withdrawal compared to say drink/opiates. People seem to do withdrawal time and time again with drink and with opiates? But I dont know of anyone (altho there must be some) who ever did more than one benzo taper. It is sooooooooo long and arduous that it would really take some forgetting? I cannot imagine (touch wood!) myself ever again being there. But, in here, time and time again you hear people talking of tapering off opiates again. It doesnt seem to matter how much you try to explain and warn about benzos - people have closed ears. Having talked at length about benzos and taking as prescribed as medication by the doctor and becoming addicted thro no fault of our own and certainly not by abusing - a poster above yet again says that he has never abused benzos! Its like talking to a brick wall!
Jennita and Howard - well done you two. Are we the only 3 in the world to successfully taper benzos?
Rosie - I know you are trying to slowly come off your K - take care and persevere and listen to Howard. (and Jennita) He is living the "hell" I have so often (obviously unsuccessfully) tried to warn of. But Rosie - maybe you are already there. Hope so and look forward to hearing how you are!
Love
Mise[/QUOTE]

Hi! Yeh, I had the protracted version of withdrawal. Even at over 3 years off, I still have some sleep difficulties and those countless vivid dreams(the sign the brain is still healing) still rage on but now I do get enough sleep to feel like a human again, thank goodness but it did take 2 years off pills to finally get to that point.

I think it was mainly because I was a complainer at the doctor's office. I wouldn't just sit and say all is ok when all wasn't ok; so they did alot of drug-switching, although most of them were different benzos. My list of drugs included restorial, ativan, klonopin,Ambien, Sonata, Serzone(around 5 wks) all within 8 months. I'd be on one, them another. I even took Paxil for 2 days but I threw up too much. The Serzone caused the same thing after a few weeks so I had to stop that one. I'm not one to throw up alot even when having a virus, so it was quite unusual. The one I took the longest was Ativan.

So I do attribute the drug switching and then a fairly short taper off the last one, Ativan, to my protracted withdrawals....if only I had even heard of Ashton back then!!! I didn't know; the only thing I did know was I had to take at least a few weeks to avoid seizures from cold turkey. I tapered without telling my doctor, who was all ready to keep me on ATivan for life, despite the fact it had literally stopped working.....I could swallow a 2 mg. Ativan pill and still be bright awake all night. He said I wasn't addicted! Well, tolerance is a sure sign of that....he had to know or really be sucked up into the whole abuse-in-order-to-become-addicted thing....durrrrrr.
Hello all,

Jennita - great husband! Lucky you to have such great support. I too was very lucky in that my husband let me get thro it without a single moan, cooking when I felt too ill to cook etc. But I think the psychological support is what finally makes a real impact on ability to keep on taper? As to recovery - you are so very frank - thank you for that. If I am really truthfull, then yes I must agree - my recovery does seem to get better and better as the months go by. I am only 10 months off now - and I suspect that my sleep and general feelings are better than at 6 months. But I think that the 6 month mark is huge in this whole process and I have focused on it and realised that is when I seemed to stop moaning about insomnia!! Perhaps I have moved on more - I dont even think or worry now about sleep etc. Slow gradual improvement?

Howard

Good to hear you voicing your fears and the truth of your situation. I am sorry - I dont really know your story and dont know how much valium you are now down to. It's difficult to add much to what Jennita says. There are indeed individuals who are out of the work place, some who had to temporarily give up during part of taper and others who managed to work and taper. For my part - I am a mother of 4 kids and work part time at home on a computer (an accountancy job - not all over demanding!! LOL) I managed - but that is all - I did truly have difficult symptoms and felt ill for the whole 8 months. I know I dont need to expand. I suspect you are in a somewhat more high powered job? But - again to refer back to Ashton - she does seem to suggest that you can work and taper and not allow the taper to take centre stage. I have personally spoken to several men with responsible managerial posts who could not have taken a day off work (or lose their jobs) and who managed taper and work. Albeit not easy. But everyone is so very different in this.
You mention your BP? Now surely BP medication can be taken along with valium and hopefully you can continue to taper. I have certainly heard of that being done. Do you find your other symptoms to be so intolerable that you feel unable to work or is it this problem of BP? I also agree with Jennita generally about medication. OK - I'll give it to you that doctors are not actually malevolant - but I wouldnt like to hazard a guess at their knowledge of these newer drugs. They will believe what the pharmas claim? The anti depressants too seem a horrible alternative - and it seems to be a Catch 22 situation when you go down that route? OK - I know that really clininally depressed people benefit from anti-deps - but the depression caused by benzos can - for the most part - be dealt with in other ways.
You say too that you are overdue for another cut in your taper? Is it the BP prob which is holding you back?
Anecdotally - I had a couple of difficult glitches at about 15 mg and 6 mg - for some reason I got really badly affected at these doses - no logic to it - but it does seem to be the norm in taper. And I stayed put for longer at these doses and then just resumed. I was lucky in that at the really low end of the taper (around 2 mg) I started to feel much better - but often people find this extremely difficult. But how much there may be of a psychological factor here I dont know.
From listening to you Howard, you sound pretty good to me - you have got valium, moved on with taper............................. no-one but no-one gets thro this without a problem or three?
Take heart - you'll win this and still be a useful working member of society - you must keep believing this - there are plenty of people who have done this - just as there are some who simply could not take the symptoms of withdrawal and feel they have to stay on these awful drugs for life. That was not an alternative for me. I don't think it is for you?
Keep talking?
Mise
Jennita and Mise,

I am grateful for and glad you are interested. Let me fill in some gaps so you can understand better and perhaps offer more suggestions. I already know what they would tell me on the big benzo board, "the only way out is through," "do not take any other meds or herbs, vitamins, etc," "there is no magic wand."

1. I am at 12.5 mgs V, down from 25 mgs 4 months ago. I have not cut in 26 days, have never really felt stable here. Word is that if you wait longer than 4 weeks to cut you`ll get more symptoms. I have 2 mg tabs, feel I need to cut at least .5 mgs asap.

2. I smoke a pack of cigarettes a day, sometime a little more, of course docs suggest not quitting during withdrawal. I do drink soda with sugar in it, but not vast amounts.

3. BP flirts with dangerous levels, 160/100 range. My BP is only what is considered "normal," 120/80 range, after I have taken my larger nightly Valium dose. It really gets better if I take a couple of Benadryl for sleep right after. That is at home. I have no idea how high the BP goes during stressful times on my feet. I have felt dizzy. Heart rates in the range of 100 to 120 have not been uncommon. I am not having states that I would consider "panic."

4. Every time I see my doc he wants to put me on an AD. He says they have helped other patients he has tapered off of benzos. I did fill a script for trazadone. Took only one, bad dry mouth, no sedation to speak of. I have beta blockers, metaphoral. Do not like the side effects, shortness of breathe (common and listed), tight chest, and general wierd feeling. Have taken two. I have slow release that could be taken daily, or instant release that can be taken as needed. They do lower pulse rate and BP, will hand them that.

The tea you speak of, Chamoline, must you go to a heath food store to get it?

Kayleigh, thank you for caring, and I am praying for you.
Mise and Jennita,

Mise I thought (could have misread one of your posts) it was more than the politics that you did not agree with at that site, but also the staunch ant-auxillary meds, herbal remedies, etc. stance. People are not allowed to even discuss such things. Here they, unapologetically, part company with Ashton. This while talking about things like shaking for a month, and "could it be the cooked foods I ate?," is perfectly allowed.

They also have little belief in mental illness, this even though all societies since the beginning of history have had an abundance of the insane. I was told there that these are mostly "spiritual problems" but procelytizing is forbidden and there is no exorcism services offered. I am being real, not sarcastic. I personally have no mental illness history, but how many are told, people they do not know from Adam, to get off all their meds? This is perhaps to the real peril of the sufferer, like all ones prior issues will magically go away with a slow Valium taper...

I agree it is best to get through this without extra meds. I was fine enough before any meds. However, I have had long periods of rapid heartbeat and high BP, accompanied by feelings of dizziness. My symptoms also include muscle tightness, stabbing pains (not severe), and electric sensations. And I do have some very important work to do this summer. This all is why I have sat at this dose, 12.5. Yet I am cutting tonight, and Jennita yes, I can smoke one less cigarette day and cut down on sugar. Nonetheless, it is dangerous for a man my age to go around with high BP and rapid heartbeat. I am not real big on the idea of getting "through" this in a casket in order to adhere to an internet ideology that has spawned from yet departed from Heather Ashton.

What is the problem with beta blockers? I know people that have taken them for years with no problems and they have been life savers. They hold down heart rates and BP, and did in my case. But I do not like a couple of the side effects. I got these after, once again, talking the doc out of the AD. But if the AD gets one through the Valium taper and withdrawal, still functioning and working when one very much needs to, why not? The AD would have to be tapered but these withdrawals are by most reports I have read are less severe, and ADs seem much less prone to produce tolerance than benzos. Nonetheless, if this can be done "all natural" I am all for it. That is my preference. Thanks again. Guess you can tell I`m feeling a bit better tonight. :-)

P.S. As to the question, are my withdrawal symptoms tolerable? No, High BP and pulse rates for extended periods is not tolerable. Such can cause permanent organ damage, and when I am in one of these epiosodes, I cannot function.
[QUOTE=howard678]Mise and Jennita,

Mise I thought (could have misread one of your posts) it was more than the politics that you did not agree with at that site, but also the staunch ant-auxillary meds, herbal remedies, etc. stance. People are not allowed to even discuss such things. Here they, unapologetically, part company with Ashton. This while talking about things like shaking for a month, and "could it be the cooked foods I ate?," is perfectly allowed.

They also have little belief in mental illness, this even though all societies since the beginning of history have had an abundance of the insane. I was told there that these are mostly "spiritual problems" but procelytizing is forbidden and there is no exorcism services offered. I am being real, not sarcastic. I personally have no mental illness history, but how many are told, people they do not know from Adam, to get off all their meds? This is perhaps to the real peril of the sufferer, like all ones prior issues will magically go away with a slow Valium taper...

I agree it is best to get through this without extra meds. I was fine enough before any meds. However, I have had long periods of rapid heartbeat and high BP, accompanied by feelings of dizziness. My symptoms also include muscle tightness, stabbing pains (not severe), and electric sensations. And I do have some very important work to do this summer. This all is why I have sat at this dose, 12.5. Yet I am cutting tonight, and Jennita yes, I can smoke one less cigarette day and cut down on sugar. Nonetheless, it is dangerous for a man my age to go around with high BP and rapid heartbeat. I am not real big on the idea of getting "through" this in a casket in order to adhere to an internet ideology that has spawned from yet departed from Heather Ashton.

What is the problem with beta blockers? I know people that have taken them for years with no problems and they have been life savers. They hold down heart rates and BP, and did in my case. But I do not like a couple of the side effects. I got these after, once again, talking the doc out of the AD. But if the AD gets one through the Valium taper and withdrawal, still functioning and working when one very much needs to, why not? The AD would have to be tapered but these withdrawals are by most reports I have read are less severe, and ADs seem much less prone to produce tolerance than benzos. Nonetheless, if this can be done "all natural" I am all for it. That is my preference. Thanks again. Guess you can tell I`m feeling a bit better tonight. :-)

P.S. As to the question, are my withdrawal symptoms tolerable? No, High BP and pulse rates for extended periods is not tolerable. Such can cause permanent organ damage, and when I am in one of these epiosodes, I cannot function.[/QUOTE]

You brought up the question about AD's "getting one through a Valium taper, then why not"..... well, what I was trying to convey earlier is that AD's are not guarenteed to get anyone thru a taper, and sometimes could cause delay in the brain getting back to a normal function. It's trying to regain itself but then another onslaught of more chemicals could confuse things.

Alot of people have gotten no or only a short spell of relief, only to have it come back full force. One guy, who was singing the praises of trazadone helping him after getting off klonopin, found it to quickly lose effect and he ended up in a hospital from exhaustion. He relyed on it to help him sleep but the sleep worsened very quickly after the intial help. Last I heard, he took up taking Xanax and wasn't heard from again. Don't know what happened to him.

All I am saying is, getting on the road of drugs may not end up being temporary as there seems to be a domino effect. Mine was a sort of domino effect.... that's how I know. THe promise of each med to "solve the problem" only led to more problems later on, relying and hoping on the next med to be the final one. Sometimes, there is no final one.

It's a merry-go-round which will not stop spinning; only way off is to jump off...you may get bruises and scrapes, but they will heal and you don't have to spin endlessly anymore.

If you want to try an AD, that's ok because I understand the need for hope. I certainly can't blame anyone for trying to find relief in a pill; I did the same thing myself, trusting the doctors and hoping they were right. So I willingly took pill after pill; filled new prescription after new one. I finally realized one day, it just wasn't working for me.

As far as blood pressure, well, you will just have to monitor it close and obtain doctors' advice on that one. You can maybe help it a bit with the tea and some milk; maybe some relaxation tapes or exercises. Mild exercise will strengthen the heart, regulate it better and hold the pressure.

I did read something interesting on the internet about magnesium's effect on blood pressure; seems to help lower it. I can't confirm it personally for sure; doubt it's harmful to try the supplement and see if it helps. Worth a shot? If you try it, let me know if there is any change.

At any rate, if it continues to be too high, you may have to resort to those beta blockers. I do believe in treating life-threating health conditions, whether it's benzo caused or not isn't really the issue....you don't want to end up with stroke or heart attack...so keep a close check on it and consult with your doctor, ok?

Glad you at least are feeling a bit better tonight...perhaps positive changes are on the horizon....
[QUOTE=howard678]Jennita and Mise,

I am grateful for and glad you are interested. Let me fill in some gaps so you can understand better and perhaps offer more suggestions. I already know what they would tell me on the big benzo board, "the only way out is through," "do not take any other meds or herbs, vitamins, etc," "there is no magic wand."

1. I am at 12.5 mgs V, down from 25 mgs 4 months ago. I have not cut in 26 days, have never really felt stable here. Word is that if you wait longer than 4 weeks to cut you`ll get more symptoms. I have 2 mg tabs, feel I need to cut at least .5 mgs asap.

2. I smoke a pack of cigarettes a day, sometime a little more, of course docs suggest not quitting during withdrawal. I do drink soda with sugar in it, but not vast amounts.

3. BP flirts with dangerous levels, 160/100 range. My BP is only what is considered "normal," 120/80 range, after I have taken my larger nightly Valium dose. It really gets better if I take a couple of Benadryl for sleep right after. That is at home. I have no idea how high the BP goes during stressful times on my feet. I have felt dizzy. Heart rates in the range of 100 to 120 have not been uncommon. I am not having states that I would consider "panic."

4. Every time I see my doc he wants to put me on an AD. He says they have helped other patients he has tapered off of benzos. I did fill a script for trazadone. Took only one, bad dry mouth, no sedation to speak of. I have beta blockers, metaphoral. Do not like the side effects, shortness of breathe (common and listed), tight chest, and general wierd feeling. Have taken two. I have slow release that could be taken daily, or instant release that can be taken as needed. They do lower pulse rate and BP, will hand them that.

The tea you speak of, Chamoline, must you go to a heath food store to get it?

Kayleigh, thank you for caring, and I am praying for you.[/QUOTE]
praying for you to howard kelleigh
[QUOTE=howard678]Mise,

All is forgotten regarding the political stuff. I`ll also defend to the death your right of free speech. :)

Thank you again for doing research for me. Though it would be natural to think so, I do not think the smoking coorelates with the palps and high BP. These problems are new, have been smoking 2 decades, chest X Rays are fine enough. Other examinations reveal no real problems. It is all a response to some major stressors. Stressors that would have been troubling enough alone, but having a comprimised nervous system greatly magnified the matter. High BP and palps for 5 straight hours, feeling like I was going to faint, was far from a normal response. The BP and palps are calmed down, without taking any beta blockers, but I have been basically homebound and sleeping a lot for about 11 days. The stressors have been removed.

I would think that the smoking aggravates matters, if for only that nicotine has stimulant qualities, but a breathless feeling is a documented symptom of anxiety, as well benzo withdrawals, which Ashton affirms, is "nearly all" anxiety related. I know people that report the breathless symptom and do not smoke. Plus the symptom waxes and wanes, typical benzo.

Your friend is correct about Valium having more of a sedating effect. So many when they swtich to Valium are on cloud 9 in benzo forums, "thank you, thank you" is the refrain, but this strong sedation typically only lasts about a month. Fresh on Valium I could take 5 mgs at work and had to fight hard to keep my eyes open at work. It soon though got to where I could take 10 mgs. and hardly feel it. Now, I do not feel the doses at all, 5 mgs day, 7 mgs night. All it is doing is bridling the lion. And only does that if there are no major stressors, nothing to set of the fight/flight mechanism, that will not just calm down with some positive self-talk. Some do not relate to this. Many try and minimize it and tell me in so many words that it`s all in my head. But these are people whose nervous systems have or are adjusting faster, or who have less stressors, understanding employers, lower stress jobs, or do not have to work at all, husbands bring home the bacon.
.[/QUOTE]

Well, my husband brings home the bacon, yet I would NEVER tell you it's all in your head! Despite my blessings of no job stress, I was a mell of a hess!!(reversing curse word beginning letters help me elaborate without the vulgarity here). But some people just have easier withdrawals, period, it all depends on the medication situation and their bodies, etc....they are no more better at it than you in the logic and reasoning department! I assure you, if half of them went through what I did, they wouldn't be so calm about it all...

It's like some people can abuse their brains with all sorts of stuff, and somehow recover quickly, others can not....our bodies and brains although simular, are not alike... as in nobody has the same fingerprints yet we all have fingers!!!

I believe what you are saying, howard. It is NOT in your head, no way....


I also think it's great you are trying to cut back on the smoking. This stragedy is certainly a plus where your health is concerned, benzo or no benzo!

Although the symptoms you have are classic benzo, I do believe when in withdrawals, other factors that weren't important before become important, like your smoking. I believe a toxic chemical like a cigarette would even cause more ill effects in withdrawal than things like sugar or caffiene, although it is still wise to limit those things too.

Speaking of that, I remember going through a lengthy period during withdrawals with none of my lifetime favorite drink, Coca-cola. Guess what? Didn't feel any better. After one particular bad, barely slept night, the next day, I was so angry about the whole thing I ran out and got some Coca-cola. I figured if I still couldn't sleep, I'd at least enjoy something besides suffering. I even had some in the evening with dinner, a late dinner at that. I slept great that night....whaaa....unbelievable, huh? I was shocked to say the least.

I think this proves even further that benzo withdrawal is unlike anything else, you can't predict any of it. There are no rules, only guidelines. By the way, I'm not recommending you live it up on the caffiene and sugar, I'm just saying how dumb and confusing the whole thing is sometimes....and different for each person....

So no wonder others do not believe us when we tell them this stuff...it's illogical and nutso.... :confused:
[QUOTE=Jennita]Well, my husband brings home the bacon, yet I would NEVER tell you it's all in your head! Despite my blessings of no job stress, I was a mell of a hess!!(reversing curse word beginning letters help me elaborate without the vulgarity here). But some people just have easier withdrawals, period, it all depends on the medication situation and their bodies, etc....they are no more better at it than you in the logic and reasoning department! I assure you, if half of them went through what I did, they wouldn't be so calm about it all...

It's like some people can abuse their brains with all sorts of stuff, and somehow recover quickly, others can not....our bodies and brains although simular, are not alike... as in nobody has the same fingerprints yet we all have fingers!!!

I believe what you are saying, howard. It is NOT in your head, no way....


I also think it's great you are trying to cut back on the smoking. This stragedy is certainly a plus where your health is concerned, benzo or no benzo!

Although the symptoms you have are classic benzo, I do believe when in withdrawals, other factors that weren't important before become important, like your smoking. I believe a toxic chemical like a cigarette would even cause more ill effects in withdrawal than things like sugar or caffiene, although it is still wise to limit those things too.

Speaking of that, I remember going through a lengthy period during withdrawals with none of my lifetime favorite drink, Coca-cola. Guess what? Didn't feel any better. After one particular bad, barely slept night, the next day, I was so angry about the whole thing I ran out and got some Coca-cola. I figured if I still couldn't sleep, I'd at least enjoy something besides suffering. I even had some in the evening with dinner, a late dinner at that. I slept great that night....whaaa....unbelievable, huh? I was shocked to say the least.

I think this proves even further that benzo withdrawal is unlike anything else, you can't predict any of it. There are no rules, only guidelines. By the way, I'm not recommending you live it up on the caffiene and sugar, I'm just saying how dumb and confusing the whole thing is sometimes....and different for each person....

So no wonder others do not believe us when we tell them this stuff...it's illogical and nutso.... :confused:[/QUOTE]

Thank you.You speak the truth for many of us. The command to "just calm down" that I heard in the detox center, frankly, was sickening. Here is a very general summary. It sort of has gone like this. For a about a month it was stabbing pains in the neck along with upper back and neck tightness. Went away. Then it was problems in the mid section, pains, cramps, along with nausea. Went away. Then comes anxiousness in social situations, the most troublesome as it affects my ability to make a living. Was about a week when everything went away. Then later comes some major stressors that would have set off the fight/flight reponse in anyone. My system could not handle it. I am then literally in full blown withdrawals, vitals out of control, the Valium I was alloted did zilch against it. Betas had to be taken on two occasions to keep me safe. Was down two weeks and still not back to work. Symptom yesterday, breathlessness, today, anxiety. Tomorrow? We will see. Maybe nothing. Vitals have been fine.

In my case I see this more as a surrender than a fight, but not a surrender that means giving up. Just a surrender that symptoms probably will come and go for some time. And I still will do all I can to perform my duties. Reading Norman Vincient Peale has done little here. Prayer has helped some. It is a bit scary the thought of getting in a really desperate spot, like the guy a saw today picking up pennies in the fast food resturant parking lot, while having no one believe in what is really going on except a few people on the internet. But that I can dispense with, "what if" thinking because I am not there yet. Thank you again. :)





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