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[QUOTE=Jennita]Well, I'm no expert on alcohol but I have to disagree as I've seen more people become alcoholics and end up in AA who drank the hard stuff than beer/wine drinkers I know.

And as I understand it, a glass of wine, a bottle of beer and a shot of whiskey have the same amount of alcohol, only as we know, a shot glass is pretty small. So, I'm assuming if you drank a wine-glass full of whiskey you'd be alot more mashed up than with one wine-glass full of wine.

But whatever, all I'm saying is the guy probably has a better chance of less severe withdrawals but he is definately consuming alot more beer than a person should and seems to have a problem with addictive behaviors. He should probably be just cutting the beers down slowly but surely rather than becoming a player in the Xanax horror show.[/QUOTE]

Of course a wine glass of hard liquor would contain more alcohol than the same of wine. The point though is that alcohol addiction is just that, and this person is here saying they are addicted I believe. ;) It makes no difference if it be Barcardi 151, wine, beer, Niquil, or after shave lotion. It is a matter of one`s preferred means of consumption. As to taste, cost efficiency, avalilability, how much they mind frequent trips to the bathroom, whatever... A.A. is full of alcoholics that prefer beer, and there are many social drinkers that prefer hard stuff. It is like saying that someone is going to have an easier time with benzo withdrawals if they come off a daily habit of taking 20 .25 mgs Xanax tabs as opposed to 5 1 mg tabs. The issue is alcohol intake and addiction, not the type of beverage. My objection is that this person may be led to believe that drinking beer instead of hard stuff may in some way make things easier on him. Or that he could get the idea that drinking some beer is okay. Very risky if an alcoholic.

As to the benzos for alcohol detox, fully appropriate. Fast detox is the way to go for alcoholics so sunk in the mire of symptoms and cravings that they can hardly stop. But a hospital setting is preferred for those that can get in them. Three or four days of moderate benzo use to make withdrawals more comfortable, prevent a seizure, the DTs (can be fatal) and the rest of the short term craziness that can go on is appropriate. Let us not become so anti-benzo that we deny legitimate very short term, and in some cases, life saving uses. Same goes for a coke or meth addict that shows up at the hospital with their heart jumping out of their chest. A shot of Valium has surely saved many a life. So I have to object to the "anethesia only" argument that has been promulgated here (not by you) as it could cause someone to refuse needed treatment as a result of being scared unnecessarily on the net.

P.S. He was already told to not use the benzo past a few days. I would more suggest taking a regime of the benzo those few days as if they wait until it is "needed" they could already be heading into a tailspin. Alcohol withdrawal, though brief, can be serious business.
[QUOTE=howard678]Of course a wine glass of hard liquor would contain more alcohol than the same of wine. The point though is that alcohol addiction is just that, and this person is here saying they are addicted I believe. ;) It makes no difference if it be Barcardi 151, wine, beer, Niquil, or after shave lotion. It is a matter of one`s preferred means of consumption. As to taste, cost efficiency, avalilability, how much they mind frequent trips to the bathroom, whatever... A.A. is full of alcoholics that prefer beer, and there are many social drinkers that prefer hard stuff. It is like saying that someone is going to have an easier time with benzo withdrawals if they come off a daily habit of taking 20 .25 mgs Xanax tabs as opposed to 5 1 mg tabs. The issue is alcohol intake and addiction, not the type of beverage. My objection is that this person may be led to believe that drinking beer instead of hard stuff may in some way make things easier on him. Or that he could get the idea that drinking some beer is okay. Very risky if an alcoholic.

As to the benzos for alcohol detox, fully appropriate. Fast detox is the way to go for alcoholics so sunk in the mire of symptoms and cravings that they can hardly stop. But a hospital setting is preferred for those that can get in them. Three or four days of moderate benzo use to make withdrawals more comfortable, prevent a seizure, the DTs (can be fatal) and the rest of the short term craziness that can go on is appropriate. Let us not become so anti-benzo that we deny legitimate very short term, and in some cases, life saving uses. Same goes for a coke or meth addict that shows up at the hospital with their heart jumping out of their chest. A shot of Valium has surely saved many a life. So I have to object to the "anethesia only" argument that has been promulgated here (not by you) as it could cause someone to refuse needed treatment as a result of being scared unnecessarily on the net.

P.S. He was already told to not use the benzo past a few days. I would more suggest taking a regime of the benzo those few days as if they wait until it is "needed" they could already be heading into a tailspin. Alcohol withdrawal, though brief, can be serious business.[/QUOTE]

My point was that hard liquor is more potent, which may cause alcoholism more promptly and easily than weaker stuff, and have higher tolerance/withdrawal issues.

Benzos are not all created equal either, as some such as Ativan and Klonopin are more potent, targeting more receptors than let's say, the weakest which is Valium. Most would agree(including experts) it is harder to get off Ativan than Valium, thus the preferance of Valium taper. Potency does have a factor in all drugs/alcohol.....

....but I'm not disagreeing with you in the fact that this guy does have a problem! Twelve beers a day, everyday, is alcoholism and must be dealt with! I'm not sure if benzos are the best treatment, as the other poster mentioned Clonodine and since his doctor used it, I think it may be a viable alternative to benzos for detox.

Now, since he has used the Xanax already, perhaps continuing very small doses may help short term to get him out of the woods with the beer situation and seizure/delirum tremors free, as long as he doesn't forget to respect it and keep it small doses/short time on.

Now, I'm not real sure about the shaving lotions, but I think Old Spice aftershave, being an earlier one, is less potent than ones like Aramis but who knows, that old fisherman looked way too clean and fresh after a day of fishing so the Old Spice may be pretty strong stuff. :D
[QUOTE=Jennita]My point was that hard liquor is more potent, which may cause alcoholism more promptly and easily than weaker stuff, and have higher tolerance/withdrawal issues.

Benzos are not all created equal either, as some such as Ativan and Klonopin are more potent, targeting more receptors than let's say, the weakest which is Valium. Most would agree(including experts) it is harder to get off Ativan than Valium, thus the preferance of Valium taper. Potency does have a factor in all drugs/alcohol.....

....but I'm not disagreeing with you in the fact that this guy does have a problem! Twelve beers a day, everyday, is alcoholism and must be dealt with! I'm not sure if benzos are the best treatment, as the other poster mentioned Clonodine and since his doctor used it, I think it may be a viable alternative to benzos for detox. [/QUOTE]

Alcohol and benzos are essentially all created equally, respectively, but it depends on the dose. 10mgs Valium = .5 mgs Xanax. Xanax is 20 times more potent, according to Ashton`s potency equivalency chart, but in each instance one pill delivers the same, though the Valium has more metabolites and exits the system slower. But alcohol is just simply that, blended or not blended in whatever. One shot of tequila = one beer. Downing a beer is just as "potent" as downing a shot. This is elementary, no "experts" needed. If an "expert" can come up with a credible study to show that those that prefer mixed drinks over beer are more prone to becoming alcoholics, I`d look at it. Again none of that matters as the person that started the thread appears to already be alcoholic. They need to stop and stay stopped.

The reason Ativan is viewed as tougher to come off than Valium relates to the much shorter half-life of Ativan, not to the strength or weakness of either drug. Concentrations of the chemical in the system will drop faster creating more sudden, frequent, intense withdrawals. But as concentrations of Valium drop over time, it can all catch up with the addict coming off quick, and in the end, could be viewed as just as ugly. I watched a young woman once, cold turkeying off a 5 blue Valium a day habit, jerking so bad that she could not hold her cigarette.

None of this is relevent however to alcohol as half-lifes are not an issue. It all expells from the system at the same relatively rapid rate. Drink a 6 pack over an hour, 6 shots over an hour, one is in the same spot. If that does not get the point across then one will never get it... Though once hooked it makes sense to go with the hard stuff as drinking a case of beer or more a day involves alot of work and bathroom breaks. Though many go that route and are no better off than the whisky drinkers. Even though their beer only drinking feeds their denial. "Hey, I drink only beer." They typically have beet red faces and very large bellies. I have known many. The issue is abuse/addiction, and maybe in some cases heredity, not the beverage of choice.

I highly suspect no "expert" is arguing that hard liquor targets more "brain receptors" than beer! That is not relevent here. With benzos, Ashton claims that the notion that some benzo types target receptors that others don`t is "nonsense." But I doubt there is any true expert on that issue, or the issue of precisely how benzos effect the brain. Though one could find plenty of confident assertions complete with diagrams off the net to cut and paste, the doctors often do not agree. Many get the impression that medicine is an exact science, far from it, and brain science is now in it`s infancy. Though some scientific theories deserve more attention than others, what is heralded today might be laughed at in 100 years. Such is history.

Clonidine sounds great for fast alcohol detox if affective as benzos, but as far as I know it is simply a BP med, not a seizure med. It also would be interesting to know how effective it may be at curbing the often deadly "DTs" that can accompany alcohol withdrawal. Until we get much more than a post from one that used Clonidine to come off opiates, I`d say stick with the benzos for alcohol detox. There has been no problem with their use in this medium.

P.S. The reason Valium is preferred to the others for tapering relates to half-life, not potency. In fact, matching potencies is essential when doing a crossover and starting a taper, eg. 2 mgs Xanax = 40 mgs Valium. Valium has more metabolites and thus has a half-life of 24-100 hours. This makes for steadier concentrations of the essential chemical in the bloodstream. To the contrary, Xanax has a half-life of 4 to 9 hours which creates the need for frequent dosing, peaks and valleys, much tougher taper. No good analogy for alcohol here either...





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