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[QUOTE=howard678]Of course a wine glass of hard liquor would contain more alcohol than the same of wine. The point though is that alcohol addiction is just that, and this person is here saying they are addicted I believe. ;) It makes no difference if it be Barcardi 151, wine, beer, Niquil, or after shave lotion. It is a matter of one`s preferred means of consumption. As to taste, cost efficiency, avalilability, how much they mind frequent trips to the bathroom, whatever... A.A. is full of alcoholics that prefer beer, and there are many social drinkers that prefer hard stuff. It is like saying that someone is going to have an easier time with benzo withdrawals if they come off a daily habit of taking 20 .25 mgs Xanax tabs as opposed to 5 1 mg tabs. The issue is alcohol intake and addiction, not the type of beverage. My objection is that this person may be led to believe that drinking beer instead of hard stuff may in some way make things easier on him. Or that he could get the idea that drinking some beer is okay. Very risky if an alcoholic.

As to the benzos for alcohol detox, fully appropriate. Fast detox is the way to go for alcoholics so sunk in the mire of symptoms and cravings that they can hardly stop. But a hospital setting is preferred for those that can get in them. Three or four days of moderate benzo use to make withdrawals more comfortable, prevent a seizure, the DTs (can be fatal) and the rest of the short term craziness that can go on is appropriate. Let us not become so anti-benzo that we deny legitimate very short term, and in some cases, life saving uses. Same goes for a coke or meth addict that shows up at the hospital with their heart jumping out of their chest. A shot of Valium has surely saved many a life. So I have to object to the "anethesia only" argument that has been promulgated here (not by you) as it could cause someone to refuse needed treatment as a result of being scared unnecessarily on the net.

P.S. He was already told to not use the benzo past a few days. I would more suggest taking a regime of the benzo those few days as if they wait until it is "needed" they could already be heading into a tailspin. Alcohol withdrawal, though brief, can be serious business.[/QUOTE]

My point was that hard liquor is more potent, which may cause alcoholism more promptly and easily than weaker stuff, and have higher tolerance/withdrawal issues.

Benzos are not all created equal either, as some such as Ativan and Klonopin are more potent, targeting more receptors than let's say, the weakest which is Valium. Most would agree(including experts) it is harder to get off Ativan than Valium, thus the preferance of Valium taper. Potency does have a factor in all drugs/alcohol.....

....but I'm not disagreeing with you in the fact that this guy does have a problem! Twelve beers a day, everyday, is alcoholism and must be dealt with! I'm not sure if benzos are the best treatment, as the other poster mentioned Clonodine and since his doctor used it, I think it may be a viable alternative to benzos for detox.

Now, since he has used the Xanax already, perhaps continuing very small doses may help short term to get him out of the woods with the beer situation and seizure/delirum tremors free, as long as he doesn't forget to respect it and keep it small doses/short time on.

Now, I'm not real sure about the shaving lotions, but I think Old Spice aftershave, being an earlier one, is less potent than ones like Aramis but who knows, that old fisherman looked way too clean and fresh after a day of fishing so the Old Spice may be pretty strong stuff. :D
[QUOTE=Jennita]My point was that hard liquor is more potent, which may cause alcoholism more promptly and easily than weaker stuff, and have higher tolerance/withdrawal issues.

Benzos are not all created equal either, as some such as Ativan and Klonopin are more potent, targeting more receptors than let's say, the weakest which is Valium. Most would agree(including experts) it is harder to get off Ativan than Valium, thus the preferance of Valium taper. Potency does have a factor in all drugs/alcohol.....

....but I'm not disagreeing with you in the fact that this guy does have a problem! Twelve beers a day, everyday, is alcoholism and must be dealt with! I'm not sure if benzos are the best treatment, as the other poster mentioned Clonodine and since his doctor used it, I think it may be a viable alternative to benzos for detox. [/QUOTE]

Alcohol and benzos are essentially all created equally, respectively, but it depends on the dose. 10mgs Valium = .5 mgs Xanax. Xanax is 20 times more potent, according to Ashton`s potency equivalency chart, but in each instance one pill delivers the same, though the Valium has more metabolites and exits the system slower. But alcohol is just simply that, blended or not blended in whatever. One shot of tequila = one beer. Downing a beer is just as "potent" as downing a shot. This is elementary, no "experts" needed. If an "expert" can come up with a credible study to show that those that prefer mixed drinks over beer are more prone to becoming alcoholics, I`d look at it. Again none of that matters as the person that started the thread appears to already be alcoholic. They need to stop and stay stopped.

The reason Ativan is viewed as tougher to come off than Valium relates to the much shorter half-life of Ativan, not to the strength or weakness of either drug. Concentrations of the chemical in the system will drop faster creating more sudden, frequent, intense withdrawals. But as concentrations of Valium drop over time, it can all catch up with the addict coming off quick, and in the end, could be viewed as just as ugly. I watched a young woman once, cold turkeying off a 5 blue Valium a day habit, jerking so bad that she could not hold her cigarette.

None of this is relevent however to alcohol as half-lifes are not an issue. It all expells from the system at the same relatively rapid rate. Drink a 6 pack over an hour, 6 shots over an hour, one is in the same spot. If that does not get the point across then one will never get it... Though once hooked it makes sense to go with the hard stuff as drinking a case of beer or more a day involves alot of work and bathroom breaks. Though many go that route and are no better off than the whisky drinkers. Even though their beer only drinking feeds their denial. "Hey, I drink only beer." They typically have beet red faces and very large bellies. I have known many. The issue is abuse/addiction, and maybe in some cases heredity, not the beverage of choice.

I highly suspect no "expert" is arguing that hard liquor targets more "brain receptors" than beer! That is not relevent here. With benzos, Ashton claims that the notion that some benzo types target receptors that others don`t is "nonsense." But I doubt there is any true expert on that issue, or the issue of precisely how benzos effect the brain. Though one could find plenty of confident assertions complete with diagrams off the net to cut and paste, the doctors often do not agree. Many get the impression that medicine is an exact science, far from it, and brain science is now in it`s infancy. Though some scientific theories deserve more attention than others, what is heralded today might be laughed at in 100 years. Such is history.

Clonidine sounds great for fast alcohol detox if affective as benzos, but as far as I know it is simply a BP med, not a seizure med. It also would be interesting to know how effective it may be at curbing the often deadly "DTs" that can accompany alcohol withdrawal. Until we get much more than a post from one that used Clonidine to come off opiates, I`d say stick with the benzos for alcohol detox. There has been no problem with their use in this medium.

P.S. The reason Valium is preferred to the others for tapering relates to half-life, not potency. In fact, matching potencies is essential when doing a crossover and starting a taper, eg. 2 mgs Xanax = 40 mgs Valium. Valium has more metabolites and thus has a half-life of 24-100 hours. This makes for steadier concentrations of the essential chemical in the bloodstream. To the contrary, Xanax has a half-life of 4 to 9 hours which creates the need for frequent dosing, peaks and valleys, much tougher taper. No good analogy for alcohol here either...
[QUOTE=Jennita]Hey, it's not just the half life but since they are low potency with the availbility of low dosage pills, they are easier to cut down! A 3 mg. Valium is like a quarter potency of a 1 mg. Ativan. Easier to reach those low, low dosages when cutting up pills!

In referring to receptors, benzos are not all created alike. They do have different chemical compounds, and effect the brain a bit different although basically alike; for example, Klonopin is the one which has anti-seizure benefits and is prescribed for such, Ativan and Xanax are more for panic/anxiety, and ones like Restorial and Halcion are strictly hypnotics. Ambien is only slightly able to pass for non-benzo, missing one receptor activity. But it bites just like the benzo.....it's sort of that obnoxious 2nd cousin always horning in on family events.

See, although in the same family, benzos are different chemically and how they effect the brain; I'm guessing alcohol, since there are so many different types, might be sort of like that too?

But both share the same effect of being absolutely no good for anyone on a regular basis.

Anyway, I agree with you basically on all counts. Hopefully this guy/gal (where?) in the meantime, while we are chatting, is getting himself off the booze safely and being careful to avoid getting hooked on Xanax in the process.[/QUOTE]

Jennita,

Internet benzo brain science and recovery is a world of it`s own, complete with it`s own creeds and terminology, and a wide range of claims and testimonies. I`ve done my homework. I`d say I believe about 25% of it, take 50% with a grain of salt, and reject the other 25. I told you my source on the receptor binding, check it out. I do not necessarily buy it myself. Ashton concludes her manual by saying that more research is needed and, in so many words, that she is not claiming to have the final word. That is responsible of her in my estimation. Unfortunately, many that have spring boarded from her are far more sure of themselves and engage in much embellishment, somtimes to the point of the bizzare. What I do buy for sure is that Valium is the best benzo to taper, that I need to minimize stress, and come off these drugs. That is all I need to know.

On the alcohol, as far as I know, ethyl alcohol is ethyl alcohol, produced through fermentation. I doubt there is much of an analogy between this and certain pill types within a family made by chemists in a science lab. But if you come to believe there is, feel free to affirm it here without challenge from me. But do not expect me to accept it uncritically or invest my attention with it. IMO, there comes a time to get on with one`s life and stop fuming at drug companies, doctors, and world economies, stop reading internet horror stories that often may be totally unrelated or only partially related to benzos, stop analyzing brain theories, and stop reading the posts of a minority that remains around the net overtly or invertly promising others long term doom and gloom. This is a disease all it`s own. I am closing that chapter.

To those with the drinking problem, I`d say A.A. is probably your best source. They have been at it 60 some odd years. They can help you decide if you are alcoholic and give good guidance about how to get and stay sober. And you may just find a good home among these many fine people. But like anything else, you got to want it...





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