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when i saw the overall amounts of actual tylenol consumption that you drouser and esp you anita are and have been taking i HAD to mention this to you both. only becasue of the overall amounts of the tylenol both of you have been consuming daily for actual YEARS here that for you drouser, with 14 norcos a day with 325 mgs of tylenol in each pill comes out to around 4,928 mgs per day? and anita, your daily intake was just way over that safe limit at even the fifteen per day was at, only becasue lortabs contain 500 mgs of tylenol, 7,500 mgs and any days you actually took the 25 per day was at an actual 12,500 per day intake and just soo way over what is the recommended "occasional" usage of just 4,000 mgs per day. but when that is used on a chronic or daily type basis that actual safe limit will go down to about 2000-3000 mgs(and could be lower or a bit higher depending upon YOUR real sensitivity to your liver and tylenol itself)only because that very needed enzyme used to actually metabolize tylenol gets way too depleted being really heavily utilized at the chronic/daily level it simply cannot replenish itself that quickly anymore since it just IS being kind of drained way too fast. the thing here is, anytime you just go well over that 'safe limit' per day, and that needed enzyme gets depleted since it is just being used up doing heavy metabolizing all day long, it reaches that point where once it is gone that day, anything that comes into the liver TO be metabolized it actually creates what is called NAPQI, and it IS a hepatotoxin that will start killing of the liver cells(hepatocytes) within your liver. this IS liver damage that depending upon just how truely impacted the functions are can start creating function loss of the many different functions our livers just do everyday for us.

i am sooo glad you have gone off of this anita, truely and drouser, if you need that extra push/reason to actually completely stop this as soon as you possibly can, THIS just IS the very BEST reason for you to try like hell to get there. while drouser, your daily intake was indeed over that even "occasional" usage amount but not as high as anitas, you still can create that very same problem as much as what the possibles just are here for anitas daily intake was. it all more depends upon that 'chronic intake over years here? this can also impact the kidneys too just depending upon how massive the over the limits the intake was and also at that chronic daily intake amounts? and if at any time while taking the higher amounts of tylenol and you may have also consumed any alcohol, since both tylenol and alcohol simply use that very same enzyme for metabolization, that can kind of up the possibles for more cell damage and scarring that eventually comes along with alot of repeated cell damage too?

my best advice to the both of you would be to please see your docs here for full physicals, tell him or her what has been going on so they really are aware of what has been an ongoing medical issue and they will simply do all the right bloodwork to check esp that liver. or despite telling your docs really being the very best way to approach this for the best possible care and full evaluation of everything that simply can be impacted is the very best idea, you can just ask for the full physical and tell them you really want the labs done too? either way you seriously just NEED to make certain that neither of you, esp you anita, has truely suffered any function impairments within your livers. you just really DO need to know what may or may not be a much bigger issue that needs some attention soon?

while the liver CAN regenerate itself over time only if that 'toxin" creating the damage is stopped and not introduced again, that all really DOES depend more upon just what specific areas and functions of the liver have been truely damaged and how severely too. once the damage reaches that certain point, it will not come back again. i just really really DO want you both to be okay here and make certain that you seriously DO at the very least here, get those liver labs checked just to make certain you know whether or not there just IS a possible function issue somewhere. if there IS, you seriously DO need to know now, not later when some insane symptoms start showing themselves. the sooner this gets found out the better it can possibly be treated too.

trust me her when i say that no one truely really even knows what just is going on anywhere within their own bodies til it either presents itself with certain symptoms or it actually gets found out with some type of testing. i was actually born with a very progressive form of a kidney disease that also has attacked my liver as well. i did not have a freaking clue til our youngest son presented with a liver disease like 11 years ago and i had to be tested for it and it WAS passed onto him from me without ME even knowing i had this crap going on since birth. unfortuently i DID go thru my own addiction to painkillers back in the 1980s and also consumed wayy too much tylenol than i should have. luckily for me, after 5 years of this crap i did manage to seek treatment for it and stopped. things would not have been good right now if i hadn't trust me. like i said, you just really don't know whats going on inside of you til you do some looking and testing.

anita, you really really DO espescially need to get your liver labs checked out here soon hon. the massive amounts of tylenol that you just have been taking in were just so wayy over that safe limit for even occasional usage let alone that chronic usage intake too. if by some chance you did suffer some damage, the mere fact that you are at where you are right now with not actually taking anything anymore is HUGE for you, and something to be VERY proud of too believe me. but please do, for you and your familys sake get this checked out just so YOU know where you are at?

no one just really truely knows what their own real safe limit is either til you just check and see whats going on with that liver and the functions too. who knows here, you may not have sudffered as much cell damage as some others would? but finding out just IS crucial right now. and it seriously would be a very very good idea to also let your doc know this too? that is what i did and believe me not only was he soo helpful, but by doing this, you also have just prevented the possibility of having a relapse by making certain you have cut off THAT potential 'supply" as well should you ever even be tempted again?? you do THAT part only because we are addicts and we have to take any possible steps when we just are in the 'good' place in our heads to try and prevent ANY possiblitys here of even beginning to start trying to justify anything in our heads that may allow us to use again when we are NOT in that good place at times later? that part alone truely helped ME in big ways from even thinking of going 'there' again, ya know? we just need to keep ourselves safe from ourselves by a little planning ahead for certain times that justifying things again so we CAN use are not and option.

but i DO really hope that both of you will get your livers checked out for your sake and the people who do care about you too. hopefully everything is okay, but you just DO need to know that part. good luck guys, Marcia
believe me anita, i KNOW no one sets out one day to actually want to or become addicted, it DOES usually just 'happen", way too before you even realize it in some cases, been there done that. i am really glad you will eventually see and speak with your doc tho, esp if he was the one whos doing the Rxing. like i mentioned above, just the mere fact that he IS aware, you just have kind of planned ahead for ANY possible starting to "rejustify' things in your head again at some time down the road? we DO have to plan ahead for ourselves whenever we can. this really WAS a really good thing that i DID do tho. the simple act OF even justifying our behaviors IS what really continues to feed an addiction actually. we take and we justify it in some sick way inside our heads so 'we" do not have to really accept the overall responsibilty of some of our actions we just do to feed an active addiction. thats the KEY thing really that keeps it going. but you really truely ARE doing the very BEST possible things here hon, and THAT ain't easy.

once the WD and the crappy stuff inside your head that keeps telling you that you 'need' starts to really get less impactful with more clean time, it DOES get that much better, little by little, baby steps, ya know? this whole thing is a 'process' that you just have to tackle step by step and very much day by day. every single day that you do not use is HUGE for you and the people who love you, and your body will love you for it too. i DO hope the liver is okay . just make certain that you do just eventually get things checked out hon, you just DO need to know things here, thats all.

there ARE some particular things that you can use to reduce the impact of the tylenol on the liver, but unfortunetly on an addiction board, i cannot in all good conscience even begin to spell them out on here. it would very much encourage certain people who are struggling with their own addiction and the ones who actually just read thru this board in order to 'further and continue' to use that its just not a good idea to even begin to post the info for you here. i hope you understand that. but your doc IS aware of this stuff and you can find the info yourself too. but using the sam E? there is only one possible issue that i have read about in using this? and that is when your B vitamins are depleted? for some reason only when the Bs are depleted, using the sam E can actually in some cases create its 'own' particular form of liver damage in certain people. so it is NOT always the very best thing? but as long as you are taking the Bs it "should" be okay? but i WOULD most definitely speak with your doc to have the Bs checked by blood when you see him too just so you know if they are even being absorbed properly with using the sam E too? you just need to know for certain. alot about real absorbtion of any vitamin supps have more to do with the real overall quality of the vitamins and the bioavailability too. so just DO double check that by blood draw. alot of us are just kind of normally lower in our Bs for some reason too. i do think they just tend to really deplete quicker for some reason?

but I am really proud of you and you should always be proud of not using ANY day along the way, it IS a really big thing as it just also helps YOU to better distance yourself for 'that' time in your life too? but if you should have ANY possible issues here tho, do not hesitate to either get yourself into a good treatment program, which was really sooo needed for me to fully even understand what had been in my head that even allowed me to start this crap and to also continue to keep doing it too despite ALL the negatives going on in my life BECAUSE of it? either that or at least call and find out where the nearest NA meeting is. this really was huge for me to simply have that 'place' where everyone was going thru or had been thru what i was at the time? but i also did not have anything even close to the help here on actual addiction forums either. but NA is just something that is always availiable to anyone who needs to go there too.

just keep hanging in there hon. this really crappy part does NOT last forever, it DOES get better with more time. i do think that you are probably thru the worst part already. its now dealing with the other stuff you need to get into here soon. but just remember, baby steps. you just do not want to overwhelm yourself and risk going back, so take things in YOUR timeframe. but just make certain that they just DO get done. take care anita, and keep up what you are doin, its working for you. marcia
hey drouser??? just wondering how things are going with you since you have not yet responded to any of the good tapering posts here, or at all? just hoping you are still here and are doing okay? we DO worry about everyone and anyone who takes the time and the need to feel they WANT to get off the crazy train of addiction. i really want to know how things are going and if you have yet found a way by just reading thru some of these really great posts as to how to at least start the taper process or seen your doc about getting yourself fully checked out too? i am just really kind of worried about you here hon. please post when you can or feel the need?

things really sound good anita. but i am just wondering about your actual situation with your BF also in this too and what really sounds like a much more 'in the brain' pattern of addiction and his chances of being able to even do this himself without some form of real treatment to just remove what keeps him in the addicted 'mode' in his head? and any possible situation where YOU could end up using again only becasue there IS even something actually readily availiable to you too here?

the one thing that can happen when both partners are just even addicted to anything really and trying to 'get clean' and esp stay that way? while in some cases, it is a really 'good' supportive situation, it can also be and do the opposite too in one like you here, who IS off and doing well? the other partner here, only because addicts when using togehter for soo long, really don't 'like' the fact that the other is NOT using anymore and can in some cases actually sabbotage(not even a 'deliberate" thing but more subconsciously(sp?)) all of the great efforts that the "clean' partner has put into their own sobriety and staying that way? its just very very hard to change an addictive ongoing "using together" type of behavior in alot of cases? i am wondering seriously if this is a 'good' situation for YOU to be placed in at least til HE gets off the crap and you are both more in that better a bit more controlled place in your heads?

its just his ongoing pattern of addiction here that would seriously concern me for you than anything. that type of a pattern that is soo incredibly set inside his head, seriously NEEDS a more in depth type of intervention like a good treatmnent program can offer? going into an actual out patient treatment program just showed ME alot of the 'whys" in how in gods name i even ended up where i did? and working thru THAT level of crap so i could simply get ME inside my head to a much better and more healthy place really WAS very crucial for me anyways to even have the tools and the knowledge gained there to stay that way for many many years til my life got turned upside down in 03 and now i HAVE to be on a LA form of narcotics, which was NOT an easy choice after sooo many really good years without this crap in my life or my body? thanks to a fully aware of my past pain clinic i do at least have a life now. very very heavy and close monitoring and signing a contract telling me if i screw up, i am out the freaking door, and with my over the top insane pain levels, i would honestly want to die(it just seriously IS THAT bad now). that helps tons as good motivation. but if i had NOT actually gone thru the treatment part of my quitting process and NA when i needed it, and just have the many learned along the way tools to try and manage this now, i really do not know if this could even work for me. but we have managed well so far, NO backslide or taking anymore than Rxed for that day, not even one tiny pill no matter what, or how bad since THAT one little act would place that 'justifying" crap right back into my head? and once you simply justify anything like THAT just even once, it makes it 'okay" inside your head to very easily do it again and again til you are right back where you were again crap?this is where you find many other ways to also try and better manage pain?? but i still NEVER let my guard down for one single minute or think it cannot happen to me again, cuz i KNOW it can.

i would always recommend to anyone who really is wanting off of anything they are addicted to, only because of what this actually even 'does' for the addict, is to seriously at least go thru some form of actual real treatment program so you understand everything about you and your reasons for even becomming addicted to whatever actually even happened at all in the first place? even an out patient vs inpatient is something better than doing this on your own and still leaving you with the very same crap that helped trigger that addiction then continue to even justify it still being unresolved? its just a bit scarey. but it also CAN be done on your own too depending upon how YOU actually are and if you also maybe seek out a good therepist to help change certain behaviors or simply get to the real reasons for this? many many times it is actually an underlying depression that we start kind of self medicating and not always even realizing that we ARE even depressed at all? this was my particular "reason". i simply 'felt' so comfortable and 'good' whenever i took something vs when i was "me" normally? that is what triggered it, but I, me continued to do it/feed it.

i seriously anita would be very very careful and also very watchful of your own potential triggers here and if in ANY way shape or form, your BF even suggests or tries to reel you back in, you just have to at least temporarily sever ties til HE gets HIS crap together. this just IS for YOUR best outcome and your family hon. quitting using is not easy at all, but why make it worse if this turns out to be down the road, a huge stumbling block for YOU to just stay clean? just kind of concerned about you here, thats all hon. you ARE doing great tho. good luck with another day,marcia
Hey Jules,

This all kind of just spewed out real quick, and its not really to my liking in any way (Just fragmented bits and pieces of something), and I'm afraid I sound like some pretentious holier-than-thou azz. So if I do, I apologize ahead of time......sometime my evil alter-ego gets out into the world doing damage, and I'm oblivious to it. :(
I am a little rushed for time today, but still wanted to at least wish you Good Luck, and tell ya to just stick to it, and keep going regardless of how hard it may seem. You seem to have found some solid folk to help you out, and it sounds like you may have some people around that might have a pretty good grasp on how to proceed with things, which is great. Most times if there is someone assessing individuals and the different and unique problems that each person has when entering into a program, that person doing the interviews, they are probably gonna be someone whose been around the block a few times. And for you, that's definitely a good thing.

A couple of things though, I think I need to point out, because you seemed to not make a big deal of it. First off you stopped your plans to reduce your meds straight away, seemingly without even a second thought to it. Now you might say its because of my experiences that you did that, and it might be part of it, but I think a bigger part is probably that you recognized, and realized yourself that you were moving things along way to fast, a situation that almost never ends well. Sometimes it just takes a couple of words to make us recognize something that we've already seen and know.

The one other thing (and its something that every person whose been addicted to anything has done) is that you put a deadline on yourself to do "X-Thing" (This case, when you have to be off all medication). Not sure if you even realized you did that. Without getting in detail. lets just say that I've had more then a little experience in this area, and almost everyone out there is going to say this same thing, DONT DO IT, and there is a very simple reason why. When you do something like this, you end up putting even more stress on yourself then was already there, and I think we can agree that trying to reduce or stop taking certain meds, is stressful enough. Then on top of that there is also the other side of this. In the case that things didnt go exactly as planned, and you arent able to reach your goals, and end up still having to take a few (and by this time it hopefully would be very few) meds while on vacation, would that really be that bad? It would be bad though if you ended up getting upset and mad with yourself for not doing whats you said you were going to do, and because of that you just end-up saying..... Screw it, it doesnt matter what I do anyway (Yeah, I've had those same self-destructive type thoughts too, I think there are a lot of people he do).

Sorry, I'm not trying to be the lecture guy here, and its not so I can tell you that "This" is how you should do things, and this is what you should do......It might sound like that but its not. It's just that it seems like a lot of the traps that I set for myself when I was stopping meds are almost the exact same ones your setting for yourself.......and honestly I'd hate myself if something happened when I kept my mouth shut, simply because I didnt want to risk possibly coming across as a real A$$hole. If I do come across as that guy, I do apologize, its not meant to be like that. It's just that I've been there and gone though it, or if I havent, I know some people that have; and here's the really crazy part. All those people (me included) had to stop doing things like we had been, and had to start doing things different, in a way that we werent setting a trap for ourselves down the line.

And sorry, said I was gonna be quick but my brain just seems to have gotten in the drivers seat and locked everyone else in the trunk.:round: .All this reminds me of NA meetings I would go to with a close friend of mine, hence a lot of the knowledge). There was something that someone said there that stuck in my head, and it must have, because this goes is going back about 15+ years. This isnt a quote or anything, and I'm probably gonna forget some bit, but anyway its something like this.......

Addiction isnt a race, you dont get some prize for finishing first or fastest. You dont get a reward for lasting longer, or doing things better then the next guy. What you get is pretty much nothing. Its what everyone else has, A normal life.





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