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I am new to this board and trying to find answers. I have many symptoms of anemia and have had blood work done that proves I am anemic. Here are some of my levels:

Ferritin: 2
Hemoglobin: 9.5 (Low)
Hematocrit: 30.5 (Low)
MCV: 68 (Low)
MCH: 21.2 (Low)
MCHC: 31.2 (Low)
RDW: 17.7 (High)

I also had high Thyroid Antibodies (but with normal thyroid levels otherwise), and borderline ANA (autoimmune antibodies) and low Vit. D.

I have extremely heavy periods (fibroids) and am in the process of getting my hormone levels checked.

Here is my question:

I have two relatives with pernicious anemia (my grandfather and uncle) as well as various autoimmune diseases in my family (MS, myasthenia gravis, celiac, Hashimoto's).

My doctor started me on Vit. D, B12 1000 mcg., folate 1000 mcg., and ferrous sulfate 125 mg. twice a day. I wanted a baseline blood test on my B12 levels before I started on the B12 and folate, but she says just start on it and we will test my levels after a month and see if my hemoglobin and ferritin levels come up.

I read that taking folate will mask Pernicious Anemia and am worried that this will happen with me as I already have some problems associated with this such as numb arms and hands, eyelid that twitches 24 hours a day, swollen eyelids, brain fog, tiredness, shortness of breath, heart palpitations, heart murmur, etc.

Should I just take the iron supplements and B12 and not take the folic acid until after I get the additional blood work completed?
Ive learned over the yrs to do what feels right to you personally im with you. I wouldnt take it until you have the blood test.
Hi HKK,

First of all welcome to the boards. Your question is a very interesting one, but I want to address one thing before I begin. In today's world with information being available at anyone's fingertips who has the internet, a lot of medical information goes around to people and unfortunately in many ways it's out of context. As a result, tension arises between doctor and patient mostly because doctors are horrible communicators--even if they are right about something! I'm not totally siding with your doctor, but if you look at the values you gave for your bloodwork, and you have some medical training, it's easy to see that vitamin B12 deficiency is not your problem.

Whenever someone has anemia, it is important to ask WHY. In your case, your anemia is almost certainly due to iron deficiency. Again, however, the question has to be asked, WHY do you have iron deficiency anemia? As a young woman with heavy periods, that is a good explanation to the underlying cause. Iron deficiency anemia is characterized, yes, by anemia, and evidence of low iron stores (i.e. a ferritin of <18), but there are other markers in your bloodwork which highly suggest longstanding iron deficiency. Your MCV or mean corpuscular volume (i.e. the average size of your red blood cells) is very low. Normal is between 79-97. Because your RBCs don't have enough iron to make hemoglobin, they end up becoming smaller. Additionally, your RDW is wide. What that means is that there is great variability between the sizes of your red blood cells. This suggests that rather than there being a DNA problem with your cells (i.e. in something like thalassemia) there is more of a problem in the blood getting iron. Some cells are able to get more iron than others and are thus bigger.

So what the heck does this have to do with Vitamin B12? Well, in vitamin B12 deficiency your MCV is normally LARGE. On average, people with Vitamin B12 deficiency have MCVs which are over 100. If you had BOTH iron deficiency and Vitamin B12 deficiency, your MCV would probably be in the "normal" range because the small RBC effect of the iron deficiency would "cancel out" the large RBC effect of Vit B12 deficiency.

Now on to your symptoms. I understand that your family has pernicious anemia, and yes, this does somewhat increase your risk for getting it; however, I would stop short of saying anything else. One common misconception by patients is that, if they list their symptoms to a doctor, s/he will be able to immediately tell you what disease you have. There is the idea of "specificity" of symptoms. To elucidate further, if someone walks in to the doctor's office complaining of a cough productive of green phlegm and a fever, well, that is pretty SPECIFIC for pneumonia. HOWEVER, most symptoms patients experience are very NON-specific. "Numb hands", "brain fog", "palpitations" (etc.) together do not point towards any one diagnosis at all. They are all very non-specific. This is why when people go to the doctor, it seems like the doctor isn't listening. What the patient thinks are important symptoms are rarely helpful in making a diagnosis. The doctor, however, DOES know the important symptoms, so s/he will often brush the patient's complaints off and ask specific questions. Unfortuantely, if the doctor is not a good communicator, this leads to tension.

WHOOOOOOO, that was a long-winded post, but aside from my explanation of anemia, does my explanation of specific vs. non-specific symptoms make sense?
The reason they give you folate with iron is because it helps you to absorb the iron. I do have Hashimoto's and your blood labs are very indicative of Hashimoto's. Ferritin of 2 is terrible and if you aren't having horrible symptoms, I would be surprised. I was at 18 and have never been more miserable in my life. I was prescribed chromagen forte and four months later I am at 53 so much better. My vitamin D was at 11.8 and now after 2,000 iu per day my Vit D levels are still low but improved to 18. So it does sounds as if you have Hashimoto's which alone will mess with you and put you up and down and all over the place until your thyroid finally burns out. So tell your doc about your concerns with the pernicious anemia. I do believe in pernicious anemia the blood cells do look different under the microscope. However with iron deficiency anemia and hashimoto's your blood cells still may not look different, so ask your doctor that as well.
If you have a doctor who doesn't like questions or request, you simply have a bad doctor. Any time an ego gets in the way, the person is not in the field for the right reasons, so move on if your doctor is that way.
BTW you are considered anemic based on your low hematocrit and hemoglobin. That means you need to get supplements now. Your ferritin is the total iron storage your body has available so when that gets low in conjunction with the low hct and hg, you need to get those numbers up now. I had only low ferritin and the other tests were normal and I was miserable so I can't imagine being in your position right now.
[QUOTE=herekittykitty;3873613]I am new to this board and trying to find answers. I have many symptoms of anemia and have had blood work done that proves I am anemic. Here are some of my levels:

Ferritin: 2
Hemoglobin: 9.5 (Low)
Hematocrit: 30.5 (Low)
MCV: 68 (Low)
MCH: 21.2 (Low)
MCHC: 31.2 (Low)
RDW: 17.7 (High)

I also had high Thyroid Antibodies (but with normal thyroid levels otherwise), and borderline ANA (autoimmune antibodies) and low Vit. D.

I have extremely heavy periods (fibroids) and am in the process of getting my hormone levels checked.

Here is my question:

I have two relatives with pernicious anemia (my grandfather and uncle) as well as various autoimmune diseases in my family (MS, myasthenia gravis, celiac, Hashimoto's).

My doctor started me on Vit. D, B12 1000 mcg., folate 1000 mcg., and ferrous sulfate 125 mg. twice a day. I wanted a baseline blood test on my B12 levels before I started on the B12 and folate, but she says just start on it and we will test my levels after a month and see if my hemoglobin and ferritin levels come up.

I read that taking folate will mask Pernicious Anemia and am worried that this will happen with me as I already have some problems associated with this such as numb arms and hands, eyelid that twitches 24 hours a day, swollen eyelids, brain fog, tiredness, shortness of breath, heart palpitations, heart murmur, etc.

Should I just take the iron supplements and B12 and not take the folic acid until after I get the additional blood work completed?[/QUOTE]

[B]Hello :wave: herekittykitty--I love your name, it makes me want to start calling cats:D LOL!

From your labs they do point to iron deficiency anemia, why, is what you want to find out. You are considered moderately anemic almost, mild. Your MCV is not ~just low~ but severely low at 68. And....your are very iron deficient at a 2 ferritin which is considered no iron (under 10), according to my Hematologist.

I know you were concerned about B-12 deficiency and PA, the other poster was correct in saying, if a B-12 deficiency coexists in the presence of IDA, it may not show and appear to be a normal reading. You are too low for that. That doesn't mean that you are not low in B-12, and you were right, you should have a baseline for B-12. Anytime there is anemia this should be checked. It takes years to deplete the B-12 and you could have something beginning that might only be a little low, but regardless it would show. You could have a B-12 of 400-500 and have symptoms, but be considered normal range. It's just not right in any way (other than you don't appear to have a B-12 deficiency from your docs point of view) that they didn't check it for you:dizzy:. You will have to keep pushing that issue. Don't give up and I promise you will win in the end!! I think that your doctor wants you to take B-12 and folate now because this helps in rebuilding healthy blood cells.

I too have Hashi's (that is your elevated Thyroid Antibodies), and I am thinking that your ANA is related to that AI disease. It can come up that way I have read. Keep an eye on this, and your symptoms. Keep them written down because you can forget them and it is so helpful to go back and read. Also, keep a record of your labs for your own reference, especially with your history.

I'm a little late to this post, have you made a decision about taking the folate or not? Best of luck to you. FLFLOWERGIRL:)[/B]
I decided not to take the folate. The doctor will probably be aggravated with me, but that's okay.

I hope, like you said, my ANA levels are up because of the Hashimoto's and not some other autoimmune something going on.
Hi Herekittykitty

[[B]B][COLOR="Red"]HKK: I see what you mean--I guess it really wouldn't hurt to do a simple test like a B12. The other thing about the symptoms you mention: remember that even though you have family members who have pernicious anemia with B12 deficiency, it STILL doesn't mean your symptoms are from that even if they had them. In fact, unless you have severe B12 deficiency with symptoms of cerebellar and dorsal-column spinal cord degeneration, the rest of the symptoms you describe (except for maybe the numbness in the hands) are not typical.[/COLOR][/B][/B]

I do not agree with this comment put up for you from another poster your symptoms inc numb hands are symptoms of B12 deficiency it causes sooo many symptoms all taht you mention the only one that doesnt fit is swollen eyelids taht I know of but it is possible as it does affect the eyes in fact it affects every system in our bodies it is a very important vitamin and you dont have to have anemia to have it.....there is a strong link between B12 and thyriod problems

Good luck if your doc wont test which is just plain silly then see another......Do all the research you can on it and make sure your supplementing with Methylcobalamin the active form pretty much anything else will not bring the repair you are wanting there are also a lot of cofactors involved the B12 that need to be taken as well........To repair damage you will need large doses consistently and it can take many months......
[QUOTE=cgranulomatis;3873705]Hi HKK,

First of all welcome to the boards. Your question is a very interesting one, but I want to address one thing before I begin. In today's world with information being available at anyone's fingertips who has the internet, a lot of medical information goes around to people and unfortunately in many ways it's out of context. As a result, tension arises between doctor and patient mostly because doctors are horrible communicators--even if they are right about something! I'm not totally siding with your doctor, but if you look at the values you gave for your bloodwork, and you have some medical training, it's easy to see that vitamin B12 deficiency is not your problem.

Whenever someone has anemia, it is important to ask WHY. In your case, your anemia is almost certainly due to iron deficiency. Again, however, the question has to be asked, WHY do you have iron deficiency anemia? As a young woman with heavy periods, that is a good explanation to the underlying cause. Iron deficiency anemia is characterized, yes, by anemia, and evidence of low iron stores (i.e. a ferritin of <18), but there are other markers in your bloodwork which highly suggest longstanding iron deficiency. Your MCV or mean corpuscular volume (i.e. the average size of your red blood cells) is very low. Normal is between 79-97. Because your RBCs don't have enough iron to make hemoglobin, they end up becoming smaller. Additionally, your RDW is wide. What that means is that there is great variability between the sizes of your red blood cells. This suggests that rather than there being a DNA problem with your cells (i.e. in something like thalassemia) there is more of a problem in the blood getting iron. Some cells are able to get more iron than others and are thus bigger.

So what the heck does this have to do with Vitamin B12? Well, in vitamin B12 deficiency your MCV is normally LARGE. On average, people with Vitamin B12 deficiency have MCVs which are over 100. If you had BOTH iron deficiency and Vitamin B12 deficiency, your MCV would probably be in the "normal" range because the small RBC effect of the iron deficiency would "cancel out" the large RBC effect of Vit B12 deficiency.

Now on to your symptoms. I understand that your family has pernicious anemia, and yes, this does somewhat increase your risk for getting it; however, I would stop short of saying anything else. One common misconception by patients is that, if they list their symptoms to a doctor, s/he will be able to immediately tell you what disease you have. There is the idea of "specificity" of symptoms. To elucidate further, if someone walks in to the doctor's office complaining of a cough productive of green phlegm and a fever, well, that is pretty SPECIFIC for pneumonia. HOWEVER, most symptoms patients experience are very NON-specific. "Numb hands", "brain fog", "palpitations" (etc.) together do not point towards any one diagnosis at all. They are all very non-specific. This is why when people go to the doctor, it seems like the doctor isn't listening. What the patient thinks are important symptoms are rarely helpful in making a diagnosis. The doctor, however, DOES know the important symptoms, so s/he will often brush the patient's complaints off and ask specific questions. Unfortuantely, if the doctor is not a good communicator, this leads to tension.

WHOOOOOOO, that was a long-winded post, but aside from my explanation of anemia, does my explanation of specific vs. non-specific symptoms make sense?[/QUOTE]

Hi
Iam sorry but this is incorrect information here you state that B12 deficiency is clearly not her problem......Incorrect there is no B12 or HCY or UMMA results so I dont know how you can say that......
However if you are talking about PA that is different the blood now changes the cells become large...and the MCV is elevated...You still need to have the B12 checked in any case

You can have a B12 deficiency or insuffeciency without anemia.....And the symptoms listed are among them....I can list a whole lot of symptoms for your viewing it affects the whole body systems not just the blood it is serious in that it can cause a lot of damage with the correct type of B12 a lot are reversable.............I know as I am B12 deficient and I dont have anemia at all nor was my MCV elevated I had foggy head,numbness, fatigue,palpitations rapid heart rate loss of memory stomach issues concentration problems couldnt talk properly the list goes on and on..........My iron was on the low side as my ferritin but not severe vitamin D very low as was my folate........
Thyriod conditions are strongly linked with B12 and also celiac disease which can acuse B12, iron vit D and folate deficiencies.........

Cheers:wave:
It is methylcobalamin that I am taking and have decided not to take the folate right now. My grandfather that had pernicious anemia went undiagnosed for so long that he did have serious neurological problems that they think were caused from his lack of diagnosis. He even had to be fed because he shook so much that he couldn't hold his own glass or fork. He was only diagnosed when he couldn't get out of the bed one day and he had to be hospitalized and given immunoglobulin IV's and they ran every test in the world on him and finally thought about B12, and bingo, that was it. Unfortunately, a lot of damage had been done. I don't want that to happen to me.
I appreciate what you are saying, but when someone has B12 deficiency as a cause of anemia, you don't need a B12 level to be able to rule it out. B12 deficiency has to be severe and longstanding in order to cause the megaloblastic changes and neutrophilic hypersegmentation seen in the complete blood count. If you understand all the different parameters that HKK has included in her bloodwork, it is clear that at least her anemia is not secondary to B12 deficiency.

You are right, however, you can have neurological symptoms of B12 deficiency in the absence of anemia, but that is relatively uncommon. I appreciate you were having a myriad of symptoms, but again if you read my comments about specificity of different symptoms, all of your symptoms are non-specific. The symptoms you name have just as good a chance of being from any other health condition you have/had, as from the B12 deficiency.

I agree with you that B12 has a widespread role in the body aside from just the blood, and this is because it is used in a critical step in DNA synthesis. The classic two systems which are affected from B12 deficiency are your hematologic system (generally one gets a megaloblastic anemia) and the nervous system (both the peripheral and central nerves). Other systems are definitely affected, but in a much more non-specific way. Because B12 deficiency will affect areas of the body where there are rapidly growing cells, other things which can happen include: atrophic vaginitis, chronic abdominal pain, nausea, hair loss etc.

I don't want to trivialize your condition as you obviously have had trouble and were being treated for it, but your case is not representative of the vast majority of people who have severe B12 deficiency from many causes: Crohn's terminal ileitis, Diphyllobothriasis, Short gut syndrome, pernicious anemia, achlohydria etc. etc. A small amount of medical training will allow one to interpret HKK's CBC and see that it is not from B12 deficiency.
[QUOTE=cgranulomatis;3877634].... The symptoms you name have just as good a chance of being from any other health condition you have/had, as from the B12 deficiency....[/QUOTE].
Exactly!

[QUOTE]... but your case is not representative of the vast majority of people who have severe B12 deficiency from many causes: Crohn's terminal ileitis, Diphyllobothriasis, Short gut syndrome, pernicious anemia, achlohydria etc. etc. A small amount of medical training will allow one to interpret HKK's CBC and see that it is not from B12 deficiency.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I am in total agreement.
[QUOTE=cgranulomatis;3873705]... In today's world with information being available at anyone's fingertips who has the internet, a lot of medical information goes around to people and unfortunately in many ways it's out of context. As a result, tension arises between doctor and patient mostly because doctors are horrible communicators--even if they are right about something! I'm not totally siding with your doctor, but if you look at the values you gave for your bloodwork, and you have some medical training, it's easy to see that vitamin B12 deficiency is not your problem.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I think this is so very true.

[QUOTE]...Whenever someone has anemia, it is important to ask WHY. In your case, your anemia is almost certainly due to iron deficiency. Again, however, the question has to be asked, WHY do you have iron deficiency anemia? ...[/QUOTE]

It is easy to become myopic and overlook the big picture when we have something concrete, like numbers/labs, to focus on...sometimes when looking at details, we can't see what's staring us right in the face! The numbers mean little if you don't know the answer to the "WHY".

Your post was much appreciated, cgranulomatis. Thank you.
[QUOTE=herekittykitty;3876288]It is methylcobalamin that I am taking and have decided not to take the folate right now. My grandfather that had pernicious anemia went undiagnosed for so long that he did have serious neurological problems that they think were caused from his lack of diagnosis. He even had to be fed because he shook so much that he couldn't hold his own glass or fork. He was only diagnosed when he couldn't get out of the bed one day and he had to be hospitalized and given immunoglobulin IV's and they ran every test in the world on him and finally thought about B12, and bingo, that was it. Unfortunately, a lot of damage had been done. I don't want that to happen to me.[/QUOTE]

Hi herekittykitty
You certainly have a lot of family history inc hashis,thyriod problems ect
I can only gtalk about B12 and I feel you should have been tested it very foolish to get you to take supplements first as it skews the tests and of course after 1 month of it your levles will be higher but you never had a base to compare with thats just crazy thing for your doctor to do.........As you have been supplementing iy give an accurate reading 1000mcg a day is not enough to correct neuro damage I gather you are using the subs?
If yo have not had your folate levels done it is crazy to take folate to.....and to not take it by that I mean if you are low in it and you are taking B12 and not folate it will just pull down folate more you must take them together they are cofactors......
If you search B12 and methycobalamin you will find all info esp a place called B12 deficiency commonly misdiagnosed.....
I am really sorry to here about your grandfather and I understand where you are coming from You may also want consider celiac and your ANA need further invetigating may have something t do with Hashis Even though you blood work doesnt not suggest PA doesnt mean you dont have a b12 thing going on...........There can be more than just one thing responsible for thhe things happenning in your body....

I wish you all the best take care:wave:
I agree you need to find out why as things can be familial.....
robinegg, trust me when I say I've done my share of reading about Vit B12 deficiency ;) I think we were talking about two different things. You were talking about her symptoms, and I was talking directly about her anemia.

I left a LOT of things off the list that can potentially cause Vit B12 deficiency. You bring up an interesting point with celiac disease (CD). CD in itself doesn't directly cause vitamin B12 deficiency, but it can be associated with certain other autoimmune conditions, such as pernicious anemia, which can obviously cause cobalamin deficiency. The nutritional deficiency most associated with CD is iron deficiency. As a result, any adult with occult iron deficiency should be first screened for colon cancer and secondly for CD. CD can also be associated with bacterial overgrowth and blind loops, both of which directly cause cobalamin deficiency, but again, CD in itself does not.

HKK, I hope your anemia is sorted out and that you feel better soon! Just out of curiosity, you say you were having very heavy periods, has this ever been investigated?
Robinegg,

Every thing you've shared with us here, and on other posts suggests you have been infected by Borrelia burgdorferi and/or its coinfections. The International and US specialists that diagnose this condition often rely on a clinical description, in other words they diagnose based on symptoms, because the borrelia burgdorferi is a very very complex "critter" and tests do not accurately identify it's existence.

A tick is only one means of infection...lyme can be transferred from mother to child in the womb (in other words babies can be born with it), it can be transmitted sexually, and it can be transmitted via flies, fleas, and other insects. If you have had it since you were a child, it is very likely that you passed this bacteria/whatever on to your child when he was in your womb.

Canadian Lyme specialists suggest that people with 20 or more symptoms RUN to the nearest Lyme Literate Medical Doctor....from what I've read, you have more than 20 symptoms! The following post contains a list of symptoms and other useful info:

Maybe it's Lymes?!

Granted, this condition is not well recognized in your country, but it is recognized! And apparently commoner than your medical profession would think based on the numbers of posts coming out of Australia with similar symptoms. I would suggest you visit the other boards...arthritis, sleep disorders, brain, etc as you may see recurring themes there...with anemia and thyroid symptoms, as well, I might add.

Bethsheba

Some doctors think that 1/2 of the chronic conditions (MS, myasthenia gravis, celiac, Hashimoto's, anemia, arthritis, MS, ALS, Irritable Bowl, etc.) are actually cases of undiagnosed lyme....that is just one reason why they call Lyme The Great Imitator.
Bethsheba...
Thanks for that but this time you cant point at lymes for me never ever been bitten by a tick....Tell me does it cause celiac disease too?


This is some info I founf about ticks in Australia it seems your Burgdorferi can not make in Australia...
[B][I][COLOR="DarkRed"]No ticks of the I. persulcatus complex, the principal vectors to humans in the northern hemisphere, occur in Australia. In eastern Australia, the logical candidate vector would be I. holocyclus which has a wide host range and is the most common tick biting humans. It was unable to transmit a North American strain of B.burgdorferi [/COLOR][/I][/B]

It seems to me that everything is related to lymes I dont discount it but...really ...I remember one doctor putting me on antibiotics for the hell of it and I was desperate I took them just made me worse did nothing at all......
also the B12 has completely healed my symptoms all of them inc my neuropathies I did have many symptoms but the B12 def will cause many many... I was never that sick as a child I used to at times have tummy issues gluten related Bethseba I got worse as I got older......Surely if I had some underlying thing as you say they would still be there so maybe if I have Lymes (I know I dont then maybe B12 could help it)........B12 has also been caused the great immatator as well responsible for all the above you listed....If you research celiac you will find the same evidence that it cause lots of autoimmune things......

So whos right who knows.... It is a real long shot where I live if not a impossibility especially if I have never been bitten at all........
[QUOTE=cgranulomatis;3877812]Rainbow, trust me when I say I've done my share of reading about Vit B12 deficiency given what I do ;) I also think we were talking about two different things. You were talking about her symptoms, and I was talking directly about her anemia.

I left a LOT of things off the list that can potentially cause Vit B12 deficiency. You bring up an interesting point with celiac disease (CD). CD in itself doesn't directly cause vitamin B12 deficiency, but it can be associated with certain other autoimmune conditions, such as pernicious anemia, which can obviously cause cobalamin deficiency. The nutritional deficiency most associated with CD is iron deficiency. As a result, any adult with occult iron deficiency should be first screened for colon cancer and secondly for CD. CD can also be associated with bacterial overgrowth and blind loops, both of which directly cause cobalamin deficiency, but again, CD in itself does not.

HKK, I hope your anemia is sorted out and that you feel better soon! Just out of curiosity, you say you were having very heavy periods, has this ever been investigated?[/QUOTE]

Wrong again Cd causes malabsorption making the use of B12 and iron impossible as it damages the small intestine the lower end one place were B12 is absorbed... so if that isnt directly causing it I dont know what is it is very common in CD lots of us have it .....as well as iron......There are many things that cause B12 def including inborn errors
Bethsheba,

While I respect your thoughts on this, the whole idea of Lyme being the cause of every chronic symptom is not supported by medical evidence. These claims of subclinical infections causing everything is a fad that happens every ten years or so in medicine. Right now, Lyme disease is the infection that everyone (including the Lyme Disease society of America or whatever they're called) seem to be supporting, but in the 90s it was Epstein-Barr, and in the 80s it was sublinical Candida infection.

The truth is, conventional medical evidence does not support your claims. People on the Lyme side of the camp will always retort by saying, "Doctors only know what they learned in medical school and don't recognize what we already know etc. etc." The problem is that the symptoms being described are so non-specific that anyone can claim that they are anything. As I mentioned before, in the 1990s everyone thought that weird neurological syndromes and fatigue syndromes were secondary to Epstein-Barr virus infection, and this was later shown to be very unlikely. People, however, play off the fact that "very unlikely" still doesn't mean 100% ruled out, so they continue to argue.

Lyme disease is an interesting critter because of the difficulty in its diagnosis, but certain labs that use unsubstantiated methods (like Igenex in Palo Alto, California) to "identify it". Then people who have symptoms searching for a label get a "diagnosis" of Lyme disease and are convinced to go on months and months of antibiotics which we don't even use long-term to treat infections like tuberculosis.

Thinking that Lyme disease is the cause of every undifferentiated seemingly neurological problem is falling in to this same trap. Bethsheba, I know you don't have any alterior motives in your suggestions, and in fact, I know you are trying to help people, but in 10 years when this whole "subclinical Lyme disease" hysteria is disproven, you'll know what I mean.

I am NOT saying that Lyme disease doesn't cause chronic neurological problems, I am just saying that the power of chronic infection with this organism is highly overstated by certain "Lyme proponents", and the very fundamental Koch's postulates of infectious diseases are not even met with this elusive bug for the non-specific symptoms HKK is describing. Lyme disease is the bug that is the fad of 2K, but what if I told you that Treponema pallidum (the bug that causes syphilis) is way more common than Borrelia burgdorferi (Lyme disease) and has the potential of causing the EXACT same symptoms? and then I told you that MANY more people have the potential of Treponemal infection than Lyme disease and then I tested everyone and I showed 20% of the population is positive for Treponema and I then suggested people with weird neurological complaints actually have subclinical Treponemal infection? You wouldn't believe me because you know that just because people have positive serology for syphilis doesn't mean they have it. The same goes for Lyme disease, mostly because the test done for it is full of problems which make it less accurate than Igenex would have you believe.
I was bitten several times by ticks when I was young. However, the last bite was around 12 years old and I'm now 40. I"m not sure Lyme's manifests that late in life, but I'll definitely bring it up to my doc. Never hurts to check everything out.
I had low ferritin (18) caused me severe symptoms, but my B12 was perfectly fine and I do not believe in most cases of anemia that there is a co-existing B12 deficiency. The two often occur without the other so having them together is probably more often circumstantial than one being caused or aggravated by the other. However, I still took the vitamin prescribed by the doc which had the iron, folate and vitamin Bs. I have improved greatly because of it so I definitely think having all of them at their optimum will help your body function properly. There are rebound affects of one problem that will cause another but in this case B12 isn't a common denominator in anemia. Regardless of that fact, there is no reason not to have a doctor check your vitamins. I think everyone should have a yearly check up on their vitamins. I never took vitamins and I'm now finding out just how important they are.
[QUOTE=robinegg;3878019]Bethsheba...
Thanks for that but this time you cant point at lymes for me never ever been bitten by a tick....Tell me does it cause celiac disease too?[/QUOTE]

as I mentioned in my previous post, [I]"You do not have to be bitten by a tick to get Lyme Disease"...women can pass it on to their children in their wombs, it can be transmitted sexually, flies, fleas, and other insects can transmit it, and few people get a rash.....and yes, there is a connection between celiac disease (and other bowel disorders) and Lyme.[/I]


[QUOTE]...This is some info I founf about ticks in Australia it seems your Burgdorferi can not make in Australia...[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't rely on one source of info regarding Lyme in Australia...I've been reading about it for over 3 years now and I can tell you (as will the experts in the field) that the info is inconsistent, and the government sources (including the US Center for Communicable Diseases) are not current with the research and sometimes perpetuate outdated/misleading info.

[QUOTE]...I remember one doctor putting me on antibiotics for the hell of it and I was desperate I took them just made me worse did nothing at all......[/QUOTE]

The fact that you got worse suggests the antibiotic was working!!! When an antibiotic kills off bacteria, the dead bacteria omit gasses (just like dead animals, I suppose, that smell bad)...normally the liver and the kidneys get rid of this "garbage" but if there is too much "garbage" to get rid of, you'll feel worse until the body does what it is supposed to do. This is called the herxheimer reaction.

[QUOTE]...also the B12 has completely healed my symptoms all of them inc my neuropathies I did have many symptoms but the B12 def will cause many many...[/QUOTE]

Yes, B12 will cause many of those symptoms, and yes, supplementation [I]may[/I] alleviate the symptoms...but as you've said, you've had problems since you were a child and you continue to have problems. The B12 treated your symptoms but n ot your condition.

[QUOTE]..I was never that sick as a child I used to at times have tummy issues gluten related Bethseba I got worse as I got older......[/QUOTE]

The symptoms of Lyme can ebb and flow, and they can change rapdily and constantly. [I]Some people get lyme and recover on their own. Some people get sick and stay sick. Some people die.[/I] How you respond to lyme depends on many factors...the disease you have acquired (it could be one or more strains of germs), how it's treated by your doctors (steroids often make it worse!!), your genetics and your immune system, etc.

[QUOTE]....B12 has also been caused the great immatator as well responsible for all the above you listed....If you research celiac you will find the same evidence that it cause lots of autoimmune things......[/QUOTE]

Yes, that's true.

[QUOTE]..It is a real long shot where I live if not a impossibility especially if I have never been bitten at all........[/QUOTE]

I don't think it is a long shot at all. I think there are alot of people from Australia with Lyme Disease...

There is a woman on the boards who was posting on lots and lots of different boards (sleep, thyroid, etc.) who eventually ended up on the Lyme boards...she had no idea as to how she could have possibly acquired lyme disease. I think she is an American living in Asia...she couldn't find a Lyme Literate Medical Doctor in the country she was staying but did find a doctor willing to send her tests to Igenex....because she and her doctors didn't have a clue as to what "bug" she was dealing with (there are over 300 strains plus the coinfections), they contacted Igenex to see what strains she should be tested for)....she is now the only person diagnosed with Lyme in that country!! But she is getting treated and it is because she (despite great fatigue and other debilatating symptoms) has searched more than one board for explanations to her health problems.

Take care.

Bethsheba
Hello cgranulomatis,

Thank you for your response...it has given me much to think about and much to research because bacteriology, immunology, and other sciences were not the focus of my education.

No, I have no alterior motives in sharing this info...but I would like to point out that I live in the state where they "discovered" this condtion some 30 years ago so it is not a "fad" condition here...and I think it's safe to say that people diagnosed with the disease, and Lymie's who have responded to treatment may disagree with some of the points you have made, as would the victims of the AIDs epidemic.

[QUOTE=cgranulomatis;3878059]....Thinking that Lyme disease is the cause of every undifferentiated seemingly neurological problem is falling in to this same trap.[/QUOTE]

I do not think that Lyme disease is the cause of every undifferentiated seemingly neurological problem. [I]I do think it needs to be considered when other things have been ruled out...especially, if symptoms are chronic[/I].

Again, thanks for the post...I suspect it may take me some time before I review the literature and respond in depth to your remarks.

Regards.

Bethsheba
It's true that many things can cause your symptoms. Autoimmune disorders and connective tissue disorders often cause symptoms similar to yours. Your B-12 actually has to get quite low for you to see symptoms and it is most common in the elderly and third-world countries. A true B-12 deficiency will mess you up big time, including the possibility of a schizophrenic-like state. I think it's important to have all your vitamin levels tested first as they are the easiest to test and usually to fix. If those are normal you need to move on to other tests. Celiac disease is common in both autoimmune and connective tissue disorders. If I remember right, you can also test negative for celiac if you are a certain blood type, but you may still have it. Lyme's disease can cause your symptoms as well, and yes, it's very unlikely but when you have visited many doctors to no avail, it would be silly not to rule that out. Getting to the bottom of things is often ruling things out before you actually find the cause. Stinks, but it's true.





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