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High Cholesterol Message Board


High Cholesterol Board Index


According to a study (in Finland) I just read, HDL increases the oxidative (bad) properties of LDL cholesterol in vitro (in an artificial environment). For those of you who don't already know, atherosclerosis (fatty deposits inside the arterial walls) is facilitated by oxidative LDL. Some previous studies have suggested that HDL reduces the oxidation rate of LDL (by inactivating LDL hydro peroxides - the liquids that oxygenate LDL lipids). Some, like this one, prove otherwise.

In as many laymen terms as I possibly can depict, the study involved removing LDL and HDL from the blood of 61 individuals. The samples containing the LDL particles were then oxygenated using an oxygenated substance (hydro peroxides). The rate of oxygenation of the LDL samples were determined. Then, HDL particles were added to the LDL samples. By adding LDL and HDL (HDL-2 & HDL-3) together, the rate of oxygenation increased significantly. In other words, in the absense of HDL, LDL oxidized slower. These findings, as the study points out, "contradicts the role of HDL as an antioxidant."

What does this mean? To me it means the possibility that the more HDL you have in the blood the more oxidative LDL will form (especially HDL subfractions 2 and 3). What we need are more studies proving this point - that increased HDL levels are associated with increased levels of oxidative LDL particles.

The study points out that the reason HDL is more oxidative is because of its fatty acid composition. Does this then mean that Omega fatty acids may cause an increase in levels of oxidized LDL particles?

The study also mentions other findings via other studies:

In a study where a mild oxygenating substance was used, small, dense HDL (the best of the three types of HDL) particles proved to be the most beneficial in inhibiting oxidative conditions in a mildly oxygenated environment. However, in a strongly oxygenated environment, no type of HDL particles provided any antioxidant benefits.

So, while this means that HDL can increase LDL oxidation, it doesn't mean that HDL is a bad thing. After all, its role in removing LDL from the blood stream (called reverse cholesterol transport) is very important and beneficial. I think what's needed, in the blood, is more antioxidant substances - such as that procured via red wine. Maybe the consumption of such antioxidant substances helps in offsetting the oxygenating properties of HDL. Who knows? More studies are needed in my opinion. In vitro experiments may be inappropriate to simulate the conditions occurring within our physiology and, therefore, these findings may be inaccurate.

In light of these findings, I’m not going to stop my attempt to procure normal HDL levels. I still think high HDL levels are good as they help “transport” LDL back to the liver.

Here's a link to the study: [img]http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=16242018[/img]

Please note that this study is backed by five other studies.
Wouldn't it be nice if they all made up their minds? I was always led to believe having high HDL was a very good thing, as I'm sure everyone else was. Many years ago my old dr. never worried about my TC as he said my HDL at that time was very high, so no need for concern. Now they are basically saying that is false, well, sorry, I am NOT buying that study at all. Seems they come up with more and more conflicts with every study, enough to make a normal human being NUTS!!! JMHO
[QUOTE=mg_health] I think what's needed, in the blood, is more antioxidant substances - such as that procured via red wine. Maybe the consumption of such antioxidant substances helps in offsetting the oxygenating properties of HDL.[/QUOTE]

Well, whatever the reason, it's generally accepted that higher HDL levels are protective. As for antioxidants, I'm a strong believer in them, and believe they are vitally important. A high enough intake of antioxidants, such as vitamins C and E, may actually help boost HDL levels and minimize oxidation. In fact, just one gram of vitamin C has more than twice the antioxidant potential of a glass of red wine, which is highly touted as a substance that prevents LDL from oxidizing.
[QUOTE=JJ] Many years ago my old dr. never worried about my TC as he said my HDL at that time was very high, so no need for concern. Now they are basically saying that is false, well, sorry, I am NOT buying that study at all. Seems they come up with more and more conflicts with every study, enough to make a normal human being NUTS!!! JMHO[/QUOTE]

JJ,

What happens in an artificial environment and test tubes is often much different than what really goes on in the human body. But I understand your frustration with conflicting studies. It makes you wonder whether or not they know what they're doing.
[QUOTE=ARIZONA73]JJ,

What happens in an artificial environment and test tubes is often much different than what really goes on in the human body. But I understand your frustration with conflicting studies. It makes you wonder whether or not they know what they're doing.[/QUOTE]

Oh I get the study ok, but like U said, not only cholesterol studies, but other ones also, are always showing an opposite opinion. Maybe that is why even the drs. are confused, noone seems to know the entire truth. Here we are envious of folks with nice high HDL, and this study shoots it down. Oh the joys of modern theories & studies!!

For now I will just keep doing what I have been, and try and keep my numbers all in range, let the experts figure it out, if they ever do..... :D

Man it got mighty cold here today. We got spoiled last week with the high 50's and low 60's, now time to drag out the heavy jackets, gloves and all the other winter goodies. Have a good one..... :wave:
[QUOTE=JJ]Oh I get the study ok, but like U said, not only cholesterol studies, but other ones also, are always showing an opposite opinion. Maybe that is why even the drs. are confused, noone seems to know the entire truth. Here we are envious of folks with nice high HDL, and this study shoots it down. Oh the joys of modern theories & studies!!

For now I will just keep doing what I have been, and try and keep my numbers all in range, let the experts figure it out, if they ever do..... :D

Man it got mighty cold here today. We got spoiled last week with the high 50's and low 60's, now time to drag out the heavy jackets, gloves and all the other winter goodies. Have a good one..... :wave:[/QUOTE]

Well, I think the evidence that HDL is protective is obvious, based on mountains of statistics involving real human case studies. What's not clear to me is precisely what they intend to find out by studying HDL's effects in an artificial environment, like test tubes. Maybe they're just trying to understand more about how it works.

The trouble with studies is that there never seems to be a final conclusion, particularly when it comes to vitamin supplements. No matter how positive the findings might be, the bottom line is always the same: "We do not at this time recommend taking such and such a vitamin supplement. More studies are necessary". Well, I finally got tired of hearing that, so I just decided to take matters into my own hands and do whatever I think is best.

Yep, it looks like winter has arrived. It's very cold and windy here, too.
[QUOTE=gardeninggal]Yes an interesting study but..........here we go again, it is, it isn't, you should, you shouldn't. I'm getting dizzy! I see these really technical articles and if you can understand them great but I have to laugh when I think back to the simplest explanation of HDL and LDL's relationship, it went something like this HDL is the garbage truck and :wave: LDL the garbage, if you have enough trucks to pick up the garbage you have cleaner arteries.
Just a happier note, It was fun to watch the deer come to our woods and eat the pumpkin's that I threw out. They know what's good, all those pumpkin seeds. Our garden club uses the pumpkin's for ornaments in our town planters and I haul them home when we are done. Remember to feed our feathered and furry friends.[/QUOTE]

I'm with you about these studies. They are all going to make us wacko with this one day this is good, next day it is bad, give us a break. Remember the lil ole lady that use to say.."Where's the beef"?, I say, where's the proof!!

I really wish they would focus more on cures, then these studies that seem to take years to prove one way or another. At my age..64, I have seen so many changes in theories about so many things it is pathedic. Like Hubble said, how many of us went to margarine cause butter was a no-no, now butter is better, let's see what they say next year.... :D

That is great about the deer. Since they tore up the woods a few blocks from me to put up a new high school, we see deer around alot. Last week coming home from shopping I saw one just standing on the side of the road, patiently waiting for cars to go buy so it could cross. Glad it wasn't a very heavily traveled road, as sometimes they dart out. Had one do that to me on the way to work one morning, man, I never slammed on my brakes so fast in all my life. Not only do I not want to hit them, they can do major damage if they hit your car. All my feathered friends are hiding in their houses, and their feeders are full, but if I forget, they sit on the railing of my deck and make noise to let me know I was bad and forgot them.... ;)

Take care..... :wave:





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