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I've attempt to talk to several people on the web claiming to have gotten better with the Lightning Process, but I still know close to nothing about this therapy. The reason is that none of these individuals are ever willing to discuss what this therapy entails and when I questioned them on it, they either get extremely defensive about it or steer me straight to the website which also has very little info about it.

To be honset, I feel that this company has solicitors roaming the web trying to convince others to try it which is a rather immoral practice. Nevertheless, whether or not this therapy actually does work, I couldn't say. I do know that CFS is a physical illness with a physical cause. Anything this therapy could do would only involve the psychological and that is NOT the root of this illness, but perhaps there is more to it than meets the eye.

Your best bet would be to talk to your friend's friend about this. If you could ever get that person to come on and discuss it with us, we would all greatly appreciate it. Thank you.
[QUOTE=OptimusPrimeX]


[I]I'm very interested to know either how your friend is doing so far, or if you are definitely going to try it yourself. Its more convincing having someone still questioning the process while their friend is supposedly doing well. Its more convincing than someone posting on a message board raving how they are better. But in any case, please keep us updated[/I] [QUOTE=OptimusPrimeX]



Hi sorry for the delay in replying, christmas and all that :)

I am still thinking about whether to go for it. My friend is still doing well she says she feels more or less 100% now (she recovered in june by the way) However still feel pretty much the same as I did before. When I talk to her I feel quite positive about it but when i read the website I am really put off. I really don't like the way in which it is presented, it seems unprofessional and untrustworthy. I don't like the way it is presented as a cure for people who 'work hard enough' at it - this just smacks of emotional manipulation of vulnerable ill people. I also emailed one of the practitioners asking for further information and received a really quite egotistical response. I was given some of the info I wanted but was also told that he was surpised I needed more evidence given the media coverage the LP has received, saying he was booked up till April. This seemed a quite ridiculous and unintelligent response; what sane person isn't going to question and research something that costs 560? Again this did not fill me with confidence. And unfortunately, since it does seem like something that you really have to give your all, unless I can get rid of this feeling of faint contempt for the whole shebang I don't think there is much chance of it working for me!

However I still think I probably will end up trying it because I do actually know someone who has seemed to get better using it. Will just have to work myself up into a frenzy of blind optimism.. :)
[QUOTE=taureancloud;2749705]Hi Katie

yes thats how my friend (who has recovered) described it. Obviously I was concerned I would be told that it was all in my mind or that i subconsciously didn't really want to get better or some such rubbish, but she assured me this wasn't how it was presented. Much more to do with changing the [I]unconscious[/I] messages the brain sends to our body than positive thinking or the like.

I have just sent off my application form and am pencilled in for March so will let you all know how it goes![/QUOTE]

Great. Oh, I really hope it goes well! Yes, I've had this theory explained to me by a therapist in london and it really does seem to make sense to me. Unfortunately, his technique for 'rewiring' the brain responses didn't really work for me, so I'm still searching. But it was definitely never about changing thoughts etc., more about trying to get at an automatic response that we're not even aware of. I'm sure this is the way forward, but just have to find a therapy that works for me...

Please report back - am very keen to hear! All the best
[QUOTE=footeys;2746012]Hi I'm not going to post again on here on any other site as I'm beginning to get a bit fed up with some of the comments eg mother of 17 year dughter postings by different people and that I'm being selfish. I have posted similar things on other sites but always in my name.
[/QUOTE]

You must understand that the skepticism is geared towards Phil Parker, the Lightning Process, and the possible solicitors roaming the web. Of course, its normal to feel this way knowing that a multitude of fraudulent practices and medicines are circulating the web right now as we speak. The problem then becomes, how are we to be convinced that the Lightning process isn't just another one of those frauds if the very people being helped by it aren't willing to share the information with us? Don't get me wrong, success stories are wonderful, but they don't do anything for us in terms of educating us about this practice.

A thought shared by some is that revealing this information would somehow be viewed as immoral or inappropriate...that they aren't 'qualified' to teach it and if they were to get it wrong that it wouldn't work. I say, what danger is there in that? If it doesn't work for us, then it doesn't work...no big deal. Perhaps then we will seek the technique from Phil Parker personally. I must remind all that there is nothing wrong with sharing this technique; it's not immoral or illegal to do so. Phil Parker does not hold any exclusive rights to this practice similar in that no single therapist holds the rights to Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy, for example. In fact, Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy is a global technique shared amongst thousands of practioners all over the world to treat anxiety and depression and is published in many hundreds of textbooks that anyone could buy and use themselves. Why shouldn't the Lightning Process be the same?

If the Lightning Process is as it claims to be, then it is the hardwork you put in that pays off just as it does Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy. So, I see no danger in sharing the information and there certainly is no cause to be offended when someone asks for this information or is skeptical of the process.
[QUOTE=itaintalld&g;2750325]...particularly as it has had some press coverage of late (Daily Mail I believe).[/QUOTE]

Yes, you are correct. I just found out that The Daily Mail posted an article about The Lightning Process on January 9th, 2007. FINALLY, the process is explained! Very interesting reading, but does it work? I might have to try this out and see.
HowieMel

:claps: :claps: ..

I have to say, regardless of the fact that you didn't actually explain how it works, you made a very good impression on how it is put together. I really do appreciate that, and what you have said is very impactful. I could see how for some people, that might not make a difference. But just giving those great analogies of taking baby steps, and evolving from there makes so much sense. I mean, in anything through life, with steps like you explained things take time and people may give up before they are finished. If they are explained out of order, than the end result will be completely disconbobulated and nonfunctional. But finishing stops in proper order in anything is key, and doing it the wrong way will result in a broken skill, and less appreciation for hard work, patience and growth.

I think thats one of the best explanation, w/out actually giving it away to spoil the steps involved. Also considering that Neuro pathway change to me would take work, in the correct way.

I'm taking out a loan with my sister, and we are going to fly to London. I really can't wait ! There's always a skeptic on my shoulder, and i stand by that, or i would end up being closed minded. But i'm eager to try this out, and tell people about it if it does work for me.
Whew! I've just spent a good hour and a half reading every post in this thread, going backwards and forwards a few times. Amazing!

What is particularly interesting is that people started out polarized on both ends of the discussion, and as time passed and some got to know each other, they were more reluctant to be vehement in stating their position, and so diplomacy reigned.... Soon they'll all sing "Kum Ba Ya" together!

Well, here is my position, and it hasn't changed from the first post to the last -- this is a scheme to lift money from desperate people! You are being exploited, folks! This is evidenced by the initial poster, an admitted skeptic, who is so sick and desperate that she clung to her friend's words of belief! And now we have a neuro-scientist with a husband who practices NLP, who is just as desperate that she's willing to suspend skepticism and demand proof, and submit to this charade! All of you, think about what you are buying into!

Number One -- has anyone questioned the intitial premise of LP? That it's the adrenaline loop that causes the fatigue? Yes, there IS an adrenaline loop, or whatever it's been labeled. In fact, the adrenal glands do not produce only adrenaline (epinephrine), but also cortisol. And they are both 'fight-or-flight' hormones -- stress hormones. And pumping those hormones on a regular basis is not good for anyone. But do you think this is only going on with people who have CFS? Don't you think everyone in our society is pumping them in over-abundance? Why aren't THEY also fatigued?

There is something else going on with CFS! Something that is NOT just about the bad, stressful, negative messages we send to ourselves. And, incidentally, we're not only pumping adrenaline when we have negative thoughts, we also pump it when we watch a stressful movie -- or a very exciting movie -- or even when we experience something very joyful in our lives. The adrenals don't know the difference between negative stress and positive stress! Where does that put LP? With its emphasis on eradicating negativism? We live in a stressful world. We get mountains of junk mail trying to get us to look at it, open it, make a decision about it... that's STRESS! We are assaulted by advertisements on television, newspapers, radio, magazines, shopping carts, busses, taxis, and now all over the internet. Just avoiding looking at them is stressful! How does LP deal with all of that?

And another thing -- much has been said about how this training will help you create or change neural pathways. Well, think again, folks. It's very, very difficult to retrain the brain to make new neural pathways. If it could be done in three days, even with lifelong homework, then stroke victims wouldn't be paralyzed, unable to speak, and otherwise disabled. Physical and occupational and speech therapists sit for years with these people, trying to get their brains to make the new neural pathways they need, but it doesn't happen so easily.

Please! All of this mumbo-jumbo just proves again that 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.' There are bits and pieces of real science in there, and with a lot of rhetoric it's being served up to you as the answer to your problems. And you are desperate! Desperate people will do anything -- and that's what they're counting on. Your desperation means their growing wealth. Do you really want to be their stooge? Do you want to have yourselves be exploited? Read again what I said, and ask yourself why these points have not been asked or addressed before. Think it through, logically. Never cease to ask questions. Even studies alone aren't the answer. Not until they've been replicated by disinterested scientists, and they've gotten the same results, and they are all published in established scientific journals.

And one more thing. I am particularly disturbed by the way the success of this treatment is said to depend on how hard the patient is willing to work at it. That is the ultimate in repugnant manipulation. Having spent all this money, the victims of this fraud will surely leave the place, unwilling to be losers, but wishing instead to confirm their decision to spend it, by becoming well! So they will do everything asked of them, and then, PUSH themselves to live a normal life. And that is the most nefarious part of all this -- we are supposed to be listening to our bodies -- to know when we're close to overdoing it! And why? Because WHEN WE PUSH OURSELVES WE DO IT BY PUMPING ADRENALINE AND CORTISOL! We don't have the resources to do it ourselves -- we must depend on those fight-or-flight hormones to get us through those activities! The very hormones LP purports to help us stop pumping! So they do that by coercing us to push ourselves?

This is diabolical.

I am outraged by the whole thing, and am terribly sorry for anyone who is willing to spend their good money -- which many of them can't afford to spend -- on FAITH!!! Well, I don't do anything with respect to medical treatment on faith alone. I need a lot of science, and acceptance by the whole scientific community, before I'd plunk down my cash to a single individual (and don't you believe for one minute that the other practictioners aren't paying him a nice royalty for being allowed to profit by it!) with a good 'story.' All of the endorsements and testimonials on the site don't sway me a bit -- every infomercial is packed with testimonials, and that doesn't make their claims any more truthful.

Before you rise up in righteous indignation towards me, reread what I said and really allow it to go through your head, and then ask yourself if your indignation isn't a result of my having attacked your 'faith.' And yes, it's vital to have an open mind -- but that means, to be open to a better argument about the truthfulness of an idea, also. It's not good to have too open a mind to anyone willing to exploit it.

Gigi
[QUOTE=catwoman!;2841978]Whew! I've just spent a good hour and a half reading every post in this thread, going backwards and forwards a few times. Amazing!

What is particularly interesting is that people started out polarized on both ends of the discussion, and as time passed and some got to know each other, they were more reluctant to be vehement in stating their position, and so diplomacy reigned.... Soon they'll all sing "Kum Ba Ya" together!

Well, here is my position, and it hasn't changed from the first post to the last -- this is a scheme to lift money from desperate people! You are being exploited, folks! This is evidenced by the initial poster, an admitted skeptic, who is so sick and desperate that she clung to her friend's words of belief! And now we have a neuro-scientist with a husband who practices NLP, who is just as desperate that she's willing to suspend skepticism and demand proof, and submit to this charade! All of you, think about what you are buying into!

Number One -- has anyone questioned the intitial premise of LP? That it's the adrenaline loop that causes the fatigue? Yes, there IS an adrenaline loop, or whatever it's been labeled. In fact, the adrenal glands do not produce only adrenaline (epinephrine), but also cortisol. And they are both 'fight-or-flight' hormones -- stress hormones. And pumping those hormones on a regular basis is not good for anyone. But do you think this is only going on with people who have CFS? Don't you think everyone in our society is pumping them in over-abundance? Why aren't THEY also fatigued?

There is something else going on with CFS! Something that is NOT just about the bad, stressful, negative messages we send to ourselves. And, incidentally, we're not only pumping adrenaline when we have negative thoughts, we also pump it when we watch a stressful movie -- or a very exciting movie -- or even when we experience something very joyful in our lives. The adrenals don't know the difference between negative stress and positive stress! Where does that put LP? With its emphasis on eradicating negativism? We live in a stressful world. We get mountains of junk mail trying to get us to look at it, open it, make a decision about it... that's STRESS! We are assaulted by advertisements on television, newspapers, radio, magazines, shopping carts, busses, taxis, and now all over the internet. Just avoiding looking at them is stressful! How does LP deal with all of that?

And another thing -- much has been said about how this training will help you create or change neural pathways. Well, think again, folks. It's very, very difficult to retrain the brain to make new neural pathways. If it could be done in three days, even with lifelong homework, then stroke victims wouldn't be paralyzed, unable to speak, and otherwise disabled. Physical and occupational and speech therapists sit for years with these people, trying to get their brains to make the new neural pathways they need, but it doesn't happen so easily.

Please! All of this mumbo-jumbo just proves again that 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.' There are bits and pieces of real science in there, and with a lot of rhetoric it's being served up to you as the answer to your problems. And you are desperate! Desperate people will do anything -- and that's what they're counting on. Your desperation means their growing wealth. Do you really want to be their stooge? Do you want to have yourselves be exploited? Read again what I said, and ask yourself why these points have not been asked or addressed before. Think it through, logically. Never cease to ask questions. Even studies alone aren't the answer. Not until they've been replicated by disinterested scientists, and they've gotten the same results, and they are all published in established scientific journals.

And one more thing. I am particularly disturbed by the way the success of this treatment is said to depend on how hard the patient is willing to work at it. That is the ultimate in repugnant manipulation. Having spent all this money, the victims of this fraud will surely leave the place, unwilling to be losers, but wishing instead to confirm their decision to spend it, by becoming well! So they will do everything asked of them, and then, PUSH themselves to live a normal life. And that is the most nefarious part of all this -- we are supposed to be listening to our bodies -- to know when we're close to overdoing it! And why? Because WHEN WE PUSH OURSELVES WE DO IT BY PUMPING ADRENALINE AND CORTISOL! We don't have the resources to do it ourselves -- we must depend on those fight-or-flight hormones to get us through those activities! The very hormones LP purports to help us stop pumping! So they do that by coercing us to push ourselves?

This is diabolical.

I am outraged by the whole thing, and am terribly sorry for anyone who is willing to spend their good money -- which many of them can't afford to spend -- on FAITH!!! Well, I don't do anything with respect to medical treatment on faith alone. I need a lot of science, and acceptance by the whole scientific community, before I'd plunk down my cash to a single individual (and don't you believe for one minute that the other practictioners aren't paying him a nice royalty for being allowed to profit by it!) with a good 'story.' All of the endorsements and testimonials on the site don't sway me a bit -- every infomercial is packed with testimonials, and that doesn't make their claims any more truthful.

Before you rise up in righteous indignation towards me, reread what I said and really allow it to go through your head, and then ask yourself if your indignation isn't a result of my having attacked your 'faith.' And yes, it's vital to have an open mind -- but that means, to be open to a better argument about the truthfulness of an idea, also. It's not good to have too open a mind to anyone willing to exploit it.

Gigi[/QUOTE]

Hi Catwoman

I totally understand your skepticism, but find your attitude a little insulting. I have spent years reading about (and thinking about) ME, as my Mum has been ill for 12 years and has, at times, been VERY poorly with it. So, as a neuroscientist and a relative of a sufferer - and now as a sufferer myself! - I consider myself pretty well-read on the subject.

Over the years, well-meaning friends have bombarded my Mum and me with miracle "cures" that they've read about, and, as we are the most skeptical people ever, we have read the info and then dismissed it. For example, I consider homeopathy to be a complete waste of time, whereas lots of people think it's brilliant. I am also completely anti-religion and can't understand why so many people believe in it (no offence intended, folks!). So, I am far from the naive, gullible person that you seem to think I am and am certainly not "desperate" and willing to try anything! I have made a prolonged and careful study of ME over the years, and believe LP to have some basis.

I agree with you that people should be VERY cautious about so-called miracle cures. Especially if they don't have much money. My position is that I can fairly easily afford to try out the LP, so if it doesn't work, then it's not the end of the world. I know that other people aren't so lucky.

Yes, there ARE other forces at work in ME - it's not simply an adrenaline problem. But, from the anecdotal evidence available, doing something to address the adrenaline problem seems to help people to recover.

You say "I am particularly disturbed by the way the success of this treatment is said to depend on how hard the patient is willing to work at it." You obviously have not really grasped what the LP is about. It is a TRAINING course (not a treatment) - so, like any other training course, if you don't bother to practice what you've learned, and just let it go in one ear and out the other, of course you won't benefit from the training!!

You don't say what your background is - it would seem that you have some scientific knowledge, but you don't state whether you have ME, or have experience of ME. You also seem to know next to nothing about the various methods involved in NLP. If you don't have experience of ME or NLP, I would respectfully suggest that you are not qualified to pass comment. I do know where you're coming from, telling people to be cautious, but your "brainier than thou" attitude stinks.





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