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This letter was such an eye opener for me. It was like reading about my relationship with my BPD husband through someone else's eyes. You put it all into words so well, too. You and I are reading the same books, and it seems that we are both learning quite a bit. Some of it sure isn't very reassuring for us, is it? I, too, am heartbroken and disappointed. Like in your situation, my husband came on pretty strong when we first began dating and I, too, made a mental note of this.

I cannot tell you if it's a good idea to send the letter or not. I believe it is well-written and really spells it all out. My only concern is whether or not he will look at it objectively. I want to 'borrow' some of what you wrote for a letter I've been contemplating sending to my husband - yet I am fearful of the repercussions it will surely bring. He will be angry and defensive - and will close himself off. Presently, he has not spoken to me in a week and a half and I have absolutely NO IDEA why. His father was hospitalized...I sent a plant to him. He needed help with some phone calls...I helped with them. The week before, I showed up at a court hearing for a lawsuit he has pending with a former customer (he is self-employed as a contractor). He seemed genuinely happy to see me standing in front of the courthouse waiting for him. He was affectionate. The following night I brought dinner since he was low on money from paying his attorney. I surprised him the week before with new jeans, shirts and socks because he was depressed that he couldn't afford to buy these things and he really did need them. These are my 'crimes' I guess. I cannot think of anything I have said or done to warrant the way I'm being treated. And, quite franky, I am tired of this.

You and I seem to be experiencing the same feelings. I feel like I'm drained all the husband sucks the life out of me with his demands. I do try to meet the demands that are reasonable, but I have been resisting the unreasonable ones...and distancing myself from the dramas, many of which he brings onto himself - but I do so with 'love' as the workbook recommends. I listen to the problems (which are always someone else's fault), offer ideas for rectifying them and offer plenty of encouragement. I still get treated like some criminal. It's certainly tiresome, isn't it?

Like you, my husband is jealous of my dog. When we married, I left the dog with my 82 yr old mother who is a widow. I didn't want her to get too lonely. Due to her age and health, I did stop in many days after work to take him for a brisk walk. I mean, heck - I love the little guy no less, know what I mean? I missed him. I love and care about my mom and want to be sure she's OK & doesn't need anything. He HATED this. Told me I had psychological issues and diagnosed me with everything from split personality disorder to ADD to munchhausen (sp?) syndrome. In the meantime, HIS dog (who has serious housebreaking issues) was NEVER left home alone. HIS dog went everywhere with us, even to places that were not appropriate to bring a dog. Dinner at a restaurant around the corner? The dog waited in the truck with the engine running on a spare key so that the heater or air conditioner could be on for him. He would take the dog to his job sites each day and it was the same thing...let the truck run all day with the A/C on to keep the dog comfortable (yet he'd complain about a lack of money only to waste money on gas like this). Invitations to a friend's house? Same deal...the dog was in the truck being kept warm/cool. It was to the point where it was an embarrassment.

You sound as though you've reached the same point I'm at...I feel like I have nothing to lose anymore. His behavior seems stable for days, even weeks. Then, out of the blue, he will snap and take things out on me. I do not deserve to be treated like this. Love should not entail this much work, constant effort - and only on my part. You and I have feelings just like they do - and we are ENTITLED to have those feelings.

So good luck and keep me posted on how things go for you. I'm still reeling from your letter because it reflects so much of what goes on in my head 24/7. I read it last night and couldn't sleep because I was 'adding' to it and editing it in my mind. :)

Scared Wife
It has become so hard to understand what it is that he wants. One minute he gives the impression of just wanting 'out'. I had paperwork drawn up at no small expense - he signed all but the final required document. Hardly indicative of someone who wants 'out' of a marriage in my opinion. He will be loving one minute, ugly and hateful towards me the next. Everything is always about HIM. I'm not entitled to any thoughts, feelings or opionions if they vary even slightly from his. In those instances, I'm wrong - selfish, evil, deceitful, sneaky, mentally ill, you name it and I've been called by the term.

It's very hard to let go. Because I remember the man I originally met - who showered me with love and affection. Was this all fake? An act? It all seemed to change as soon as that marriage license was signed. He'd even tease me about how I promised during our ceremony to 'obey'. I have a written program of the entire ceremoney, word for word. 'Obey' is nowhere in it.

His finances are a complete disaster...and he blames me. HE is the one who refused to open bills/bank statements and tend to things. I offered help right from the start and was told he had it under control. In 7 months of marriage, my sizable savings account was slashed in half just from keeping up with rent, utilities and my personal expenses. He has done NOTHING - for himself, for me or for our marriage. He told the counselor he had no time/money for the sessions because of his desperate need to focus on making money. Imagine my (& the counselor's) shock & disappointment when he signed up for flying lessons a month later. This is not 'commitment to a marriage' in my eyes. He's self-focused and that's it. He shows terrible jealousy towards me because I own a 9 acre piece of property. You & I would see this as an asset, an accomplishment. He calls it an a**-ache. He tells me I have a psychological issue regarding my mother & my dog...yet I've seen him climb into a hot tub buck naked with his little shitzu with an erection.

Another person on this board suggested I leave him alone because he may be starting to realize he's got problems. I can only hope and pray that is the case. I'm afraid and extremely reluctant to count on anything anymore. I would be there for him to support him if this were the case. I just cannot go on any longer being used and treated like a doormat while his unemployed, homeless friend reaps the benefits that I, as his wife, am entitled to yet never receive. He's really good at justifying his reasons for this and tells me I should not take it personally. How can I not? Only a total idiot would stick around for someone who continually treats them with a gross lack of respect. I'm not an idiot. I can see the writing on the wall. Like you, I get a lot of promises that turn out to be nothing more than empty promises.

It must be equally difficult for you because you were drawn to this man the same as I was to my husband. There was something there and, I'm sorry - some things just cannot be faked. If you have the opportunity and the willpower to break away, I hope you will do that. It has not gotten any better for me. Hard as I try to get him to see the light and in such gentle, supportive has not worked at all. He remains in denial. Good luck to you. I'm here to support you regardless of the path you take.

Scared Wife
I have no idea why you keep getting phone calls for him. Could it be that he didn't go to work, and they're trying to find him?
I've got a pug, and he's the sweetest little guy! He will be 14 in November. He's not going to be around forever, why should I be asked to pick someone who treats me like crap over him? I told him, I love Junior, and I don't know why you expect me to apologize for that because I'm not going to. Yes I put Junior first, that's what you do for someone who depends on you for their care and well being. I've asked him over and over, what he would do if he was dating a woman with children? Would he expect her to put him first over her kids? He says that's different because it's "just a dog". You don't know how much I hate that phrase.....when ANYBODY says it. The first time he tried to give me an ultimatum about my dog, I laughed at him because I thought he's got to be kidding! He wasn't, and I fluffed it off because it was so ridiculous. Oh, you'll love this one.....he's even asked me.... if we were in a boat... (you know where this is going, right?), and the boat tipped over, who would you save? I laughed and said, of course I'd save Junior because I would guess you'd be wearing a life jacket and you can swim so you wouldn't need saving. And I'm he worried about saving me? I told him, first of all we will never be in that situation, and second of all, who would save me?
He tells me I'm selfish. I told him, "I'm not selfish, that's just something you say when you're not getting your way"

Heres our most recent IM conversation from yesterday after he wrote and told me he feels like I abandoned typical huh?

ME:I'm sorry you feel like I abandoned you. I didn't abandon you. You pushed me away. I tried for 6 months to make you see what you were doing. I told you over and over that I wasn't going to be with someone who treats me bad. You continued to swear at me, call me names, and be disrespectful. How long did you think I would tolerate it? Forever?
Now that I've learned about borderline personality disorder, it all makes sense. It's like solving a puzzle. Now I know why you act the way you do. It still doesn't make it right, and it doesn't make it ok. I really wish you would look it up. You would really be surprised.

HIM: As I have told you befor and for the last time, leave me alone if you dont want to see me. I will not seek help for myself or us unless you see me and stand by me. That is all will say to you. I also know that 70 % of wemon have this problem also. Yes I have looked into it. Thats all will say to you goodby

ME: - I think you mis-interpreted something. It's not 70% of women, it's 70% of people with this problem are women and 30% are men
so you have looked into it?

HIM: You know where I stand with us. Call me and tell me you would like to see each oher and talk about this together or leave me alone. Thats all

ME: you didn't answer my question. What did you find out when you looked into it? Do you think it sounds like you?

Again, he's trying to use going to counselling as a barganing chip for me to see him. Why do I want to see him? It's just stress that I don't need. When I'm alone, I'm at peace. I don't even know if I should respond to him anymore. What's the point?
Yes, they certainly do sound identical. If it weren't for the age difference, I would think we were talking about the same man. We probably do have enough sense to talk around the bs they give us, but unfortunately it seems to get us nowhere. There is nothing wrong in your communication that I can see, just as I doubt you have trouble comprehending anything I'm saying. I, too, used to try to be 'specific' and 'clear' to the point where I felt like I was talking to a toddler. My husband is highly intelligent and is very skilled at throwing me off balance with no prior warning. It doesn't take me as long as it once did to 'right myself' again and stand my ground. Now when I do that, he will find a different topic to dredge up or threaten me with.

I'm continually told that I'm the one with the insecurity issue, too (and who isn't insecure in some way to some degree?). However, I don't suppose phone calls and emails to him from old girlfriends would have anything to do with that, would it? I don't suppose finding a bunch of old pictures on the seat of his truck...many of them of old girlfriends...has a thing to do with it either. But...he will try to throw ME off balance by saying I had the audacity to 'sneak off' to Boston on a business trip with my boss...even though I'd asked him to go with me when the trip was first mentioned. He accuses me of going to my mother's (when we lived together) to meet a boyfriend...all it would have taken from him was a drive-by and unannounced visit himself to see that this was anything but true. It's how his mind works...constantly puts me on the defensive and I walk away from the conversation why I even had to defend myself in the first place.

I don't like the way your boyfriend is issuing that ultimatum (I've had so many of those myself that as soon as I recognize one, it makes me want to scream!) of how he will not get help for himself or the two of you unless you see him. I might have replied that with or without you, HE will benefit the most. The help is for HIM, not YOU. That may be pointless to point out though if you know he won't 'hear' that. You may want to redirect that ultimatum without making it seem like one by telling him you wish you could see him but cannot consider it unless if he is getting help. Put the responsibility back on him, not on you. If he's online frequently, I would sit back to see if he approaches you. If he's anything like mine, he'll find some 'reason' to do so. It may not happen immediately, but it will happen. I wouldn't IM him though. If you want to send an email, that might be different and easier for you as you won't find yourself locked in a debate that you may not be in the mood for. I paid a $300 cell phone bill in November because when my husband stormed out of the counselling session, I called him to see where he'd gone, if he was OK, etc. (again - trying to show that I loved/cared). It only escalated into a debate/fingerpointing match with suicide threats from him...which is what kept me on the phone for so long.

If/when you read that workbook, you will learn about how someone with BP manipulates us through FOG...Fear (of losing the relationship, etc), obligation and guilt. Believe me, I glanced through the first pages of this workbook online and paid more than the cost of the book itself to have it shipped to me overnight. :) It will help you assess your actual situation to make a decision that is right for you, not him.

I'm just going to start redirecting these callers to his parents' phone number. I'm still a little miffed over the lack of a personal thank you from his father or from his father via his mother. Yet, I think that his dad is probably so preoccupied with 'fixing' up his son with at least the basics & is starting to monitor his paychecks a little more closely that it was just an honest oversight on his part. A few friends have agreed with this concept as well. I'm also going to work on my version of a letter because yours really motivated me so that I can get it into the mail this week. I would probably feel differently about handling things as I am if I hadn't been treated so shabbily & hatefully during Labor Day weekend. He doesn't seem to grasp the concept though that when someone treats you like dirt, you hardly feel like showing up on the doorstep again. The interesting part of his behavior is that he's pretty careful not to do it in front of his friend, although his friend has heard some things & made it a point to tell my husband he knows a really good psychologist. Maybe he is beginning to realize he's got a problem? I don't know - probably just more wishful thinking on my part as usual.

Well, hang in there & let me know how things are going on your end. I hate to encourage or discourage you. Don't fall for those ultimatums though. Nobody knows how hard that is better than I do though. Don't just follow your heart...listen to that other little voice inside of you.

Scared Wife
Hi Rosequartz,

I feel so bad for you...because you are as torn as I am. Unable to decide, latching onto every 'good' moment, wanting to desperately believe that he sees his behavior & recognizes that it's not appropriate and shows a willingness to get help. I, too, seem to fall for every bone he throws my way. You are no more of a sucker than I am. Please believe that. As I mentioned before, it's HARD when you remember those first wonderful months, the attention/affection. It felt so good and 'right' - I thought I'd found the most wonderful man on the planet and asked myself who in their right mind would let him go. He's gorgeous - beautiful blue eyes, perfect skin and long, brown a male model. I find I'm asking myself, "Where did he go? When did he slip away and where did this guy come from?"

At first, when his 'friend' came onto the scene, I resented him...he was an intrusion that might interfere with my 'work' on this relationship and a hindrance to my husband's wallet, something he could ill afford then as well as now. Soon I found him to be a blessing because I KNOW he sees and hears the things my husband says and does, and he has made some comments that should have really struck my husband between the eyes to wake him up. It hasn't worked yet. That I know of. I sit here each and every day wondering if this guy's asking where I've been, what's going on, what did you say/do to her...One night he went so far as to come right out & tell my husband that he's lucky I didn't show up one night at the hotel to strangle him in the middle of the night. He said it lightheartedly yet I knew why he'd said it. He was validating what I was experiencing and I needed that from an outsider. I really did.

That workbook is called The Stop Walking On Eggshells Workbook. I got it through Amazon. It's in my car right now. Tomorrow I'll take it into work with me so that I can give you more info off of the front of it. I didn't order the book, so how is it? The workbook has action steps for you to work through.

I fell in love with my husband right off the bat. There were troubling isolated incidents that I ignored and shouldn't have. They were definitely within the first 6 months of the relationship. As I recall them, I realize now that I was sacrificing my dignity for him and should have broken it off, but I didn't. If I knew then what I know now, I probably would have issued a direct ultimatum to him back then that if he didn't seek help, I would have no alternative but to end the relationship. In later conversations during troubled times, he inadvertently revealed that this was his fear. I didn't spot it though. It's all coming together as I educate myself on BPD. The workbook has a section that helps you distinguish whether or not you are a 'disappearing' time for friends, family, interests, etc. I was and probably still am to a certain degree a disappearing person.

That's why I'm urging you not to think only with your heart here. And I truly know how hard that is - because I did that and I'm where I am today. If it doesn't feel right, if you question his determination/dedication and sincerity, I would strongly consider ending the relationship. The psychologist warned me that my husband will get worse as he gets older. I didn't think it was possible, but it obviously is. He saw him as needing INPATIENT, LONG-TERM care, which is costly, and intensive treatment for no less than 3 years. Add to that the possible need for drug rehab. Do you really want to sit around for that length of time keeping your fingers crossed for something that may not happen? I'm not sure I can. Hang in there, Rose. I understand your dilemma and will help you as best I can with it.
Scared Wife-Thank you so much for your honesty. You must have the workbook that goes along with the book I have (with the same title). The book is excellent. It also gives a reference for a support group on line, that I have to check into just to read up a little more. However, I think my decision should already be made, but I keep checking to see it he IM'd me. He hasn't for a couple days, since the last one I posted for you. Part of me feels sad, like I'm giving up, but like one of the Non-BP's in the book said about his BP wife: he's worked so hard on not abandoning her, that he had abandoned himself. That's what scares me, that's what I think happens, like a slippery slope.
It's good that his friend can see how he's acting. Mine doesn't have any friends. He told me it was because they all had bad habits and he was trying to better himself and get away from bad influences. It sounded so noble, and I believed him. Now I believe that he drives them away. His family puts up with him because they're related to him, used to him, and some of them have the same problems.
I fell for him pretty fast too. He was great for the first 3 months, and a raging maniac for the next 6. Anyone else would say, if the relationship was bad for twice as long as it was good, what am I doing here?
I had thyroid surgery in May and my friends were urging me to "get rid of him before you have your surgery". You don't need the stress, etc. They were right, and I knew it at the time. Why have I allowed it to drag on for 4 more months?
He was a real jerk and not supportive, not empathetic with me etc. I hope you don't mind but I'm gonna cut and paste from the letter that I should have pasted the first time rather than type it all out again.
Thanks for your concern about my health. Thank God it was benign. Iím still tired. Stress and surgery takes a lot out of you. If you were that worried why didnít you have a little more patience and compassion with me? The first day I came home (to my house), Monday, you ended up storming out, because I was upset that you hurt my neck from squeezing my shoulders when you rubbed my backÖÖ3 days after being cut open. Then 2 days later on your birthday, after I thought I did everything I could to make you happy, you pulled the spoiled child act again. You say I wonít understand where youíre coming from. Itís more like I can tell you over and over until Iím blue in the face, how I feel about something and you just donít get it. I will try one more time to explain this to you, although I feel itís futile.

I felt as you did, when we first met and became boyfriend and girlfriend, I was SO happy! I was serious when I wrote in your Christmas card that you gave me a reason to believe in love again. You were wonderful, treated me great, were interested in my opinions, wanted to get to know me, wanted to spend all your free time with me, listened to me, talked to me, treated me with respectÖ.I couldnít have asked for a better guy!

I did appreciate you, and your help with things, and I always thanked you. I did not however appreciate your attitude that you should make decisions for me on things that I was perfectly able to decide on my own. I also did not appreciate your anger when my decisions were different than yoursÖÖsome examples: hosing off the lawn mower, buying a timer for the hose (you screamed at me in Home Depot), waxing my car when it hadnít been washed in months, fixing the front door by hammering the door frame instead of adjusting the closing arm, etc.

OK, now to the real issue, Junior. You say you have owned dogs, cats, lizards, etc. I would describe myself as a dog lover, a dog person. You may have owned dogs, or lived in a house with one, but you are not a dog person. I guess thatís the difference between me and you. To me a dog is a member of the family, not just an accessory or a piece of furniture. Pets have souls, personalities, feelings. Itís too bad that you donít understand the great capacity for love that a pet can offer. Youíre really missing out on something good. Oh well, we just view things differently. I told you from the start and Chuck told you that Junior is my baby. I love him. Why do you expect me to apologize for that? Iím not going to. Junior was (and is) there for me through the ups and downs of my life. He is loyal. I owe him the same loyalty. Everyone else (except my mom) has walked out of my life at some point. How many times have you told me weíre done? Loving him doesnít take away my ability to love a person, and it doesnít subtract from the love I can offer. Itís a different kind of love. Why canít you understand that? Havenít you ever heard the saying, love me, love my dog? I donít expect you to love Junior, but you donít like him because youíre jealous of him? Thatís a real problem. No one has ever not liked Junior, heís very likeable.

You say I put Junior first. Yes I do. Thatís what you do for someone who depends on you for their care and wellbeing. Again, why do you expect me to apologize for that? I put Junior first before ME even. Junior always is stocked up on food, pupporoni, milk bones, etc, and sometimes I have no food or pop in the fridge for me. If I didnít want him in my life, I wouldnít have him. Heís important to me, heís not an inconvenience. Your argument that youíre more important because youíre human doesnít make sense. The fact that youíre human implies that you have logic and capacity to reason. You should be able to understand. He on the other hand (being just a dog), would not understand why he was no longer able to sleep in bed, as he had for 13 years. I told you right from the start how important he is to me. There were no surprises.

Hereís one of your statementsÖ.
ďHow disrespectful and insulting to me that you tell me not to disturb your PET in your bed. Who do you think you are?Ē

Do you see how that sounds? Who do I think I am? Itís my pet, my bed, my house. Who do you think you are? From my point of view, youíre disrespecting and insulting me with your reaction to my request that you not disturb him because he was in pain and could hardly walk. I was also not comfortable just home from surgery but was willing to share my bed with you, when I probably would have been more comfortable alone, before you exploded and started spewing obscenities at me.
Hi Rosequartz,

I hate the thought of giving up myself. My parents were married 56 years when my father passed away. My sister & her husband will hit their 30 year anniversary next year. My brother and his second wife are at the 13 year mark. I take marriage very seriously - and my commitment to it. However, it is becoming so blatantly obvious that my husband does NOT take any of it seriously. If he did, it would have been somewhere on his ever-changing list of priorities. There has always been & probably always will be something or someone who gets listed above the marriage.

The workbook is a great tool. I'm trying to be honest with you but do keep in mind that, just like you, I'm struggling to be honest with myself as well. I keep hoping for that miracle revelation to hit my husband...for his parents to give him that much needed parental talking to...for his friend to ask him what the heck he's looking for in a woman. Still no phone call from email either but that could be due to a lack of a phone at the trailer. I'm sure it's not going to be easy for him to acquire one considering he is delinquent with his yellow pages ad (over $700) and has two unpaid cell phones (totaling about $800) along with several other delinquent bills. Unless if his parents get the phone for him.

I've mulled things over so many times. I've hardly slept more than 3 hours a night for the past two weeks - worrying about him and wondering WHAT is going on and what brought on this sudden silence. Wondering what made him pull the rug out from underneath my feet. Wondering if he realizes that I didn't abandon him, but simply could not subject myself to yet another hostile environment and cold, cold 'welcome'.

Your conversations with your boyfriend mirror the conversations I have with my husband - or struggle to have. When I try to explain myself over and over again, as plain and simple to understand as I can, not only does it get me nowhere...I also get accused of starting an argument. I don't see it as an argument at all - and will tell him so, that we are 'discussing' something. He doesn't see it that way.

His friend one night made a comment that told me instantly that he was seeing some things in my husband. His friend & I were both discussing one of our favorite shows...Law & Order Criminal Intent. I told him I liked the male detective on the show because of his psychological skill at figuring out what makes each suspect tick. (Keep in mind, my husband feels he is quite the authority on psychology and has tried to drill all those 'illnesses' into my head that he's diagnosed me with). I was discussing with his friend an episode I'd watched the previous week and how the detective made the remark, "Con artists love's where they do their best work." My husband piped up with, "Oh - so now you're calling me a con artist?!" You can respect some ACTOR on a tv show, but not my knowledge?!" I responded with, "I realize it is just a tv show and that is not what I said just now at all (his friend just sat there looking at him). I did not call you anything. I was discussing a tv show and I do know that shows such as this hire writers with that sort of background though to make the episode as realistic as possible." His friend let me finish and looked at my husband and said, "Geez, do you have a guilty conscience or something?" No reply....

So I know his friend is recognizing some things. How can he not see them? Everyone else recognizes it when I relay these incidents to them. What I can't understand is, with his own friend making these remarks to him, why isn't anything sinking in at all? I wonder if his friend is 'talking' to him about this during this sudden silence period? While he may be a 'bum', he at least has common sense and seems to really want to find a nice woman to build a life with. He's commented that I hardly seem like the type to cheat, etc. Stated that I don't give off that impression AT ALL. I hope he's asking my husband just what it is he's looking for and why he treats me as he does.

Like you, I have had to 'justify' visiting my dog at my mom's and have been told I go 'overboard' with it. This is extremely irritating to me when I see my husband drag his dog with him literally everywhere he work leaving the truck running all day with the a/c on...out to dinner, same deal. He was irritated when we pulled out of the hotel parking lot to go on a 4th of July weekend get-away and his dog was being left with his friend. As he put my car in reverse he told me, "If anything happens to that dog while we're gone, stay away from me for a month. You always have to make plans that don't include Skeeter and I think you do this intentionally..." Here we go again. You can't get it into his head that nobody else is taking their dogs on every single trip...and that dogs simply aren't permitted everywhere you go. Not all hotels accept pets...public places such as the amusement park we were going to only allow service pets. He just doesn't get it!

Keep reading the book - maybe I'll grab a copy of it myself. But if you can get the workbook, it will really help you assess your individual situation. It's interesting how you mention your surgery and his lack of supportiveness. Last July I had a rather extensive oral surgery. I informed my husband of the date/time as soon as I made the appt and reminded him periodically afterwards. The day before the appt. I asked if he could maybe go with me. He asked where the oral surgeon's office was...I told him. Suddenly, the location was 'inconvenient' to him. He asked what time the appt was. I told him...that, too, was 'inconvenient' for him. I told him since they weren't sedating me not to worry about it. I could drive myself and should be OK. He told me to call him afterwards so he'd know I was OK. I did - 3 times - and got his voice mail every time. I went home to doze and he called me at 5:00 - irritated that I had not called him. I told him to check his voice mail because I'd called 3 times. He said, "Oh - my cell phone never rang."

It sounds to me that your boyfriend's disorder is just as serious as my husband's. Too many similarities are there. That's why, if you have the willpower to let it go, you should. My husband holds steadfast to his denial. It's always someone else with the illness/disorder; it's always someone else's fault. Just when I think things are going better, BAM (like now). You mentioned how tired you are...I used to be able to make it on 6-8 hours of sleep. Nowadays - on the weekends, I'm sleeping 10-11 hours. I think our bodies are trying to tell us something to?

Write again and let me know your thoughts. I want to work on that letter to try to get it in the mail by tomorrow so that hopefully it will arrive at his parents' by Saturday. How's it going with you? Any contact from him?
Hi Scared Wife :wave:
I didn't realize you moved to be with your mom. So you moved out of your place, and he moved out too? Is your place empty? I thought he moved out and you were still in your home. My mistake!
You're right about all the knowledge LOL. I know what to look for now. I know how to recognize borderline behavior, and also narcissistic behavior. My last boyfriend was a narcissist, which I found out after the fact, although I knew something was "missing" with him, I couldn't put my finger on it. I read up a lot of good stuff on ********** too. Now I think I would be able to spot one....LOL
I'm glad you wrote you letter. I bet that made you feel better. You will sleep good tonite after getting it off your chest! I'm glad I was able to help motivate that process!
Funny what you say about beating the clock. He used to come over everyday after work and we would arrive at my place about the same time. after a while he started to pressure me about a key because he doesn't want to "wait" outside for me. He feels insulted that he's waiting in the parking lot and ringing the bell, like an ordinary person....he felt entitled to a key. He never asked nicely, he always brought it up snarly.....well if I had a key, yada yada yada. One time the power was out in my hallway and the doorbell didn't work. I didn't know he was ringing. He was furious that he couldn't get in and went to a bar and called me, although there is a pay phone by the gas station 2 doors down. He went on and on about....well if I had a key this would a never happenned...... It was a power trip with him, wanting the key, that way when he got mad he could storm out and COME BACK at will. Otherwise he storms out, he doesn't come back unless I let him. He wanted CONTROL. I didn't think he deserved a key, OR control or me and my life. I don't like the way he tried to bully me into it. So I know what you mean about beating the clock. I was always rushing right home from work, even though I may have wanted to stop for gas, a pack of cigarettes, a gallon of milk, or God forbid, what if I get caught by a train? I was worried about his rath of being kept waiting.
Oh another thing, he was used to taking a nap after work for an hour, which I would have no problem with. He wanted to come over and take a nap. Cool, he's out of my hair, I can unwind, read my mail, feed Junior, etc. Only problem was, he wanted to just take a nap and get up and shower after. We got into a power struggle about that because I didn't want him coming home from work smelly, stinky, and sweaty (and boy does this guy smell BAD when he sweats) and climbing into a clean bed. I used to kid him that he the stuff the oozes out of his poors was toxic. I really wan't kidding. I asked him to please shower first! He exploded! If he can't take a nap after work, he'll go home and take a nap in his own bed (like that's suppossed to hurt me). I told him if that stink gets in the matress, it won't come out. So it ended up being a power struggle with him showering sometimes before he napped, and sometimes not napping.
I know what you mean about missing him, but not missing the abuse. I feel th e exact same way.
No I never heard the counsellor say "WE", I'm going on what he tells me, which I realize may or may not be true. But of course the counsellor is only getting one side of the story, whatever he chooses to tell him, so the information is slanted in his favor right off the bat.
As far as the bookstore lady, you're probably right, he made it all up. You didn't sense any type of adverse reaction from her, regardless of what she may have said, did you?
Oh when he said he thinks it's only fair to go back to the psychologist because you agreed to the duplex thing, that's so much like what mine does.....they are using getting help for themselves as a bargaining chip with us.
To Rose and Lori,

I am the one who recommended you leave him alone for a while. He has to learn to sink or swim. As I have stated before a borderline won't seek help usually, unless he/she hits rock bottom. There is no bottom if someone is there to bail them out.


your situation sounds like it could get dangerous. I felt your pain and anger and frustration in reading your letter to your boyfriend. You need some time to heal yourself. Don't take his calls, don't see him. Allow yourself to mend. He needs to spend several months in counseling, possibly be medicated.


How are you doing? I know it's been a long time since you've talked to your husband. I realize that it's frustrating not knowing what's going on. You are correct in giving the advise that you have to be strong, and you must give yourself time to heal. Look our for yourself.

Both of you are strong, smart women. Do not allow yourselves to be manipulated by theses borderline men. If they were seeking help and were in counseling, if they understood their diagnoses, if they were medicated.... things may be different. but the damage has been done....

I thank God everyday that I have a husband who understands me and loves me the way I am, borderline, recovering, but not well at present.


Sorry I haven't been around lately. I've had some problems, and I hope you will recognize me now. I have been sleeping like crazy, when I went for weeks without sleeping at all. Now I sleep practically all night, then take a 2-4 hour nap in the afternoon. Today if the first time that I've been awake enough to actually write more than a few sentences.
Hi Nakita & Rosequartz,

Hope you're both having a nice Friday evening. Nakita, how are you feeling? I really hope you're on the mend. How's that terrific husband of yours? :) Feel free to dump on me any time you need to - I'm here for you, too. Please don't forget that.

I thought I'd share a couple of paragraphs from the letter (it's too long to copy all of it) I sent to my husband in the mail today. I did my best not to let it come across as an angry or accusing letter. I sure hope both of you agree that I accomplished that. I am fully aware that he will react defensively about it - if he bothers to react at all. Two of my friends think he will try to do something nice for me, etc. I highly doubt that. He's too much of an angry person hitting rock bottom to do something 'nice' for me. If he did, I'd be totally shocked. Here goes:

Do you remember the way you used to talk to me when we first met? How you told me I was perfect, have good values & morals, was responsible with a great work ethic you could only dream of finding in an employee for yourself? You didn't want me to change. (Next I inserted Rose's line about being talked to like a subordinate not as a wife).

I'm not your scapegoat. I'm not your whipping boy. I am not your enemy. I am your wife. I deserve to be treated with respect and nothing less. You are responsible for controlling your own anger, not me.

I treat people the way I want to be treated, and I cannot remember one instance where I treated you disrespectfully, raised my voice at you to try to intimidate you, called you names, attacked your self-esteem, sitting beside you & coldly ignoring you, glaring at you with hatred in my eyes, threatening to leave you, dangling past relationships in front of you & comparing you to them or any of the other tactics you have used on me.

Xxxxx, please listen to my plea: PLEASE OPEN YOUR EYES. (I listed what I've done in recent months alone that would be considered loving/caring.)

This time, I have absolutely no idea what is troubling you. I have spent the past week and a half wondering if something bad happened at work, if you got some kind of bad news, if you had a disagreement with one or both of your parents or Steve, if maybe your sister's furniture was damaged while in the storage unit, if creditors are coming down on you hard, if you got bad news about your lawsuit. I have no idea. You gave me directions to the trailer that last Sunday night you spent at the hotel. The last thing I expected was to be made to feel so unwelcome/unwanted so suddenly at the end of that week. Part of me wants so badly to show up and see if you're OK. The other part of me remembers too clearly how I was made to feel the last two times that I did. There's been no phone call or email offering an apology or explanation so that I'd know where I stand with you. Is this fair to me, Xxxxx? (Next I wrote my version of those wonderful "I" statements)

You throw things in my face. You blame me for your unpaid bills. You tell me I don't love you & show supportiveness in spite of my continual actions & words that prove the opposite. You tell me I smell from a sandwich I had for lunch & go so far as to blast the a/c & put the windows down in the car. You call me names - & I'm not talking about those said in jest. You accuse me of things. You tell me you've got a hacking program in my home pc and my work pc as well as in your parents' pc. You check my cell phone to see who I've talked to. You will openly eavesdrop on a phone call from Kim. I have repeatedly overlooked these behaviors & accepted your explanations for you and have even made excuses of my own for you. Do you do these things to Steve? To your parents?

When you agreed to the marriage counseling, I felt you were committed to the marriage. When you quit because of business/financial problems, I was understanding & continued with it on my own. In weeks you found time & funding for flying lessons with no mention of returning to counseling. It hit me every time I saw you pull out that credit card to fill up the tank in Greg's plane and when you treated your employee to $75 worth of fireworks after just handing him a $650 paycheck. When you expressed dislike for the dr., I suggested we find another one. You refused. I have watched you commit yourself to causes involving hobbies & friends, but not to me or to us. That hurts. That's a disappointment. That's not 'commitment'. Still, I kept at it - seeking help every place I could find it: counselors, psychologists, support groups, books, workbooks, message boards. How can I continue to get help for problems I'm repeatedly being told I don't have? Every counselor eventually questions me on your lack of involvement, your lack of participation & tells me I extend myself too much to you because they don't see you giving anything substantial back. I refused to accept that - because I believed in you. Some have told me you don't even act like you 'like' me, much less 'love' me. I refused to accept that; I chose to believe you. They question your priorities & where your marriage falls into that ever-changing list, because you will obligate & extend yourself to others but not to your wife or your marriage. This 'believing' in you - that's one of the main things you were asking for, right? Why would you even want me to go it alone if it's supposed to be for 'us' in the long run? I don't understand that from you. Where's your support of me? Of us?

There's more to this letter but I'm getting tired & don't have great lighting by my computer right now. I'll share more tomorrow if you want to hear more. I just kept reiterating throughout the letter my love for him, that I'm not sitting here holding a grudge as he likes to think - but that I simply feel unwanted & unwelcome & cannot subject myself to that hostility anymore.

What do you girls think? I almost didn't mail it - I almost chickened out. But, then I figured I've got practically nothing to lose at this point anyway. Now I'm bracing for the response (or the lack of one). Neither of which is going to be easy on my mind or my heart.

Hope you guys are doing something a little fun tonight. We had a local festival last weekend that I spent an hour walking around. Tonight I just opted for the couch & a nap...after sharing a snack with my pooch. Nakita, is that little pup of yours leaving your medications alone? :)

Thanks Nakita,
I feel that it's possible. I printed off a list of signs of emotional abuse, and he fit every one of them except becoming violent with me, and hurting something I love (my pet). I thought what am I gonna do wait around for him to complete the list? It's scary. He knows how much my little Junior means to me and he is SO SO jealous! I don't really trust him. My friends keep telling me that I shouldn't have him around, I'm putting Junior at risk, is it worth it, etc. I know they're right. Yesterday I did accept his request to put me back on his IM and he sent a smiley face, no message. I sent a smiley face back, when I knew he was offline. This morning I noticed he sent a broken heart sad face. I didn't respond. I don't mean to string him along, I guess I want to hope. I'm not sure why, because I know it would mean setting myself up for disappointment.
Since you are aware of yourself being borderline, does it help you control the borderline behavior? I'm wondering if he would become aware, if it would help. You know your husband is great and all, does it make you feel more secure?
Your puppy sounds like a handful, but they're so cute at that age. Have you thought about taking him to an obedience class? It's lots of fun for them and you and they learn to socialize with other dogs etc. You should check it out! I had Junior in obedience and then agility. Now that's some fun, it helps burn off some of their energy and it's really cool. You run an obstacle course with your dog. We really enjoyed it, but he's retired now, being almost 14, he's got a little arthritis and I don't want him jumping more than he has to.
OK, talk to you guys soon! :wave:
Hi Rose & Nakita, :wave:

Sorry about that duplication pc locked up at work so somehow I posted twice. :D

Nakita, I hope you had a good day today free of the headaches. I thought my mom and I were the last of a dying breed hanging clothes out on the line. :D I love the smell of sheets that are dried outside especially. Why pay the electric company when the sunshine and breeze is free?

Rose, I researched and printed out the warning signs of emotional abuse and related to most of them as well. My husband has never become physical, yet I feared it COULD have eventually become possible. His rages can be extremely intimidating. So exercise caution...I always try to go with my gut feeling on things like that. Dear Abby often prints a list of warning signs of a potential abuser, too. I scanned a copy to my pc at work and will share some of them with you tomorrow. Our psychologist put a copy on his lobby wall, too.

Well, I'd better get myself to bed and through another day of worry and wonder with regard to my husband. I'm beginning to get angry because of this 'silence'. He'd gone to the ER back in May and swore up & down he didn't use my insurance because of our situation. Well, 3 weeks later I got the good old explanation of benefits in the mail stating that he did (how this happened was a total 'mystery' to him). I found a copy of the statement from back in June and kept it because I highly suspected he wouldn't pay his out of pocket portion of $377. I called today to see if any payments had been made and was told no. So I went to the bank and got a $77 money order & put it in the mail. It angers me to no end that he will neglect something like this that has the potential to affect me, but will make sure his buddy has plenty of cigarettes! On the other hand, I feel a little less stress in spite of bracing myself for his reaction to the letter.

You two have a great evening. Nakita - get a good night's sleep for yourself if you can. There's a really nice breeze here today - I hope you have it there, too. If so, keep those windows open so that hopefully the cool night air and sounds will help you fall asleep. ;) Give that silly pup a biscuit from me, too!

Hi Rose,

Working on my rug is relaxing - it's not a very 'complicated' craft so for me it's kind of mindless for the most part. Something I really need once in awhile. :)

My husband's friend, Steve, is/has been unemployed and basically homeless since I first learned of him returning to OH in March, 2003. My husband felt sorry for him and felt 'obligated' to help him since he'd helped my husband out when he was kicked out by his parents as a teenager. The thing my husband fails to see though is that this guy has NO AMBITION to work. He's out for that free ride and seems to keep getting why should he get a job as long as someone's going to feed him steaks and ribs every day and hand him packs of cigarettes? You can't tell me that in all this time, this guy wasn't able to land a job SOMEWHERE with all the gas stations, fast food joints and other stores that were within walking distance (he has no car either). Even when they were in the hotel, I told my husband to get an application for him from the front office and force him to apply for a housekeeping position or something. No can do! Don't ask me why. Someone like that is hardly trying to better himself or his situation. That's how I look at it anyways. That's why I was irritated to no end the night the guy came back to the hotel from an outing....with a bottle of liquor and his hair highlighted. :eek: Where on earth did he get the money for those things?! You'd think he'd want to take that few bucks and buy my husband a sandwich for dinner for a change. :nono:

I felt bad writing that letter just like you feel bad for not responding to the IM's. You might want to do what I do when I feel myself starting to soften too much...I think about something like the above or that hospital bill to keep myself ticked off enough to stay firm. Isn't that an awful way to have to live though? That's not me at all.

Just hang in there and be strong. Unfortunately, you and I are in positions where we just cannot follow our hearts anymore. We have to go more with what our heads are telling us. Lucky us, huh?! Have yourself a great stress-free evening with your favorite shows. I haven't caught either of those at all. One of my favorites are the Law & Order shows. Guess I could probably use a good sitcom these days for a laugh so I'll have to do some channel surfing one of these days. My husband and I used to watch Everybody Loves Raymond reruns. I avoid those lately because it brings back too many memories of snuggling on the couch with him and laughing with him.

Talk to you later on tonight or tomorrow. Enjoy yourself!

Hi Rose,

Yes, the occasional 'mindless' project does help. It also keeps my hands busy so I don't end up smoking as much, especially during times such as now when I'm totally stressed out. :)

My husband's friend has family in the area but supposedly nobody is willing to take him in. When my husband mentioned this, I told him that should be his first clue...when your own family is done with you like that, there's usually a darn good reason. I have used him as an example to my husband in subtle ways. Maybe that was my mistake...being 'subtle' about what I said. I guess my husband can't figure out the fact that he should be focusing on his finances and marriage first and foremost, not supporting a friend who really has made his own bed. Know what I mean? Before my husband took this guy in, he'd been sleeping on the floor of some barber shop on an air mattress. Prior to that he'd stayed with some other guy who eventually sent him on his way. The way I see it, my husband is presently not much better off than his friend. Granted, my husband works (at least last I knew, he did), but the only reason he's got a roof over his head is because of his father's efforts, not his own.

My husband may be a little depressed if he's realizing where HIS life is going. When we married, we were renting a nice 2-bdrm condo in a decent area. It had a garage and basement, which we needed because of his construction tools, etc. It also had central air and a dishwasher. He's not much for washing dishes...and the trailer his dad bought him has none of these things. It's over 20 yrs old, the rooms aren't very big and it needs quite a bit of elbow grease and TLC. I'm wondering if he's maybe eating his words from when he used to complain endlessly about living at that condo. I have nothing against living in a mobile home...don't get me wrong at all there. My sister & her husband started out in one, too. But for $2,500, I'm sure you can imagine the difference between this trailer and a better well-kept one.

His friend does not seem to have any self-respect - or respect for my husband's situation. He sat there many nights listening to us review the debt problems...and the unpaid bills on my husband's end total about $10,000 just based on the ones I'm aware of. Had I been this friend, I'd have been applying at each of the 4 hotels right in that area for any kind of job. There are also restaurants and gas stations within walking distance, too. He would spend his days sitting on the computer all day and into the wee hours of the morning. He was never 'shy' about asking my husband for cigarette money either and made no effort to try to cut back on the smoking.

For some reason, people such as Steve seem to get more respect from my husband than I do. Beats the heck out of me. I'm wondering if his father's putting his foot down since I heard him tell Steve Friday of Labor Day weekend to get a job, ANY job. He told him, "Anything's better than nothing."

Well, I'd better get my butt working here. Lots to do and not enough hours to do it in. Hope you had a nice evening with Junior last night. My class was nice and I got a lot done on my project. Still no call from my husband. Has your guy tried to make any further contact?

so your father in law told Steve to get a job, any job?
oh brother what a situation
he's probably getting sick of the situation also. I didn't realize that Steve was in a way sponging off of your husbands parents too. Geez Louise, doesn't the guy have ANY self respect at all?
You're absolutely right about, if his own family won't help him, they know him better than anybody, there must be a reason.
Hey I just thought of why your husbands may like him around......cuz Steve is such a loser, your husband feels better about himself. He figures he's a step above Steve, so he's ok. Kinda sad.
It's good that your husband is having time to think about his situation, maybe it will sink in that he's pushing away a good thing. Let him live in his run-down trailer, and think about that nice condo with the garage and the dishwasher. I don't want to sound mean, but sometimes you just wish they realized what they're doing! It's very frustrating.
I watched TV mostly all nite last night, and talked to a couple friends on the phone and didn't go on line until later, just before bed.
Well I didn't respond to the folded arm smiley face. I logged on yesterday and saw that he sent me a couple more neutral faces, so I sent one back, just kinda a neutral one. Not a broken heart, not a smile either. Maybe that makes him feel better, like there is still some contact, but without the conversation. Maybe it makes me feel better, I don't know.
Well I got to go do some work, I'll check back later. Have a good day!
Yep, that was my father-in-law who said that directly to Steve in front of me and my husband. It was long overdue, too. He sure is sponging of of my inlaws as well as my husband. If I were them and I was making my adult employed son's truck payment and housing only to watch HIM spend his money on this guy, I'd be totally livid by now. I completely agree with you about this guy's lack of self-respect. I also cannot understand my husband's lack of self-respect and respect towards his parents in doing something like this. It's just wrong in my eyes - almost like stealing, too.

I also agree with your theory as to why my husband wants to have this guy (and others like him) around him - to make him feel better about himself. Maybe you're right though - maybe he is starting to see that he's not all that far above Steve anymore. He's hanging on by a thread from what I can tell and just barely. Hopefully, his parents are asking him how he can be in the state that he's in when he works a $20/hour job and they're paying his largest bill - the truck payment. Maybe Nakita was right as well when she mentioned that maybe he's starting to realize that there's something not quite right about himself - or maybe his parents are conveying that message.

I understand you sending back the neutral smiley face. It probably does make you feel better because if you're anything like me (& it sounds like you are), you can't help but feel sorry for him. At least you aren't getting pulled into any of those draining conversations for the moment. Have you been enjoying the rest? I'm sure you're sleeping a little bit better than you would during one of those rage periods. Your evenings are so identical to mine...I get home, do yardwork or something, chat with a friend or two and then it's off to bed after I go online for a little while. What a life we've got these days, eh?! LOL :) Look forward to chatting with you later on if you have the time.


You wrote:
"Since you are aware of yourself being borderline, does it help you control the borderline behavior? I'm wondering if he would become aware, if it would help. You know your husband is great and all, does it make you feel more secure? "

The answer to both is yes! Understanding that I am borderline DOES help. I learned in therapy (that I did myself with workbooks), that I CAN control most situations, even if that means walking away from something that annoys me, angers me, or upsets me. Example: I was soo upset by my 13 y/o niece getting lunch detension because she defended herself against a girl that hit her, that I wanted to go to the school, give them the devil, and pull my niece out of school. BUT,,, somewhere in me, I knew this was NOT rational. I didn't go. I didn't call. I know the school rules... even if I don't agree... Fighting is fighting...she essentially was supposed to stand there and take it, NOT defend herself... I've been thru this with MY kids...(btw we are filing assault/battery charges with the police and juvinille authorities, and skipping dealing with the school). I vented my rage on the message board I use for emotionally challenged teens. I felt better. I waited until the next day, when I was calm, called the school, and got the details. I was correct that fighting is fighting, so she shouldn't have defended herself. That RULE burns me up, but she's NOT my kid, and the school isn't going to change that rule.

So YES, acknowledgement of being borderline, KNOWLEDGE in itself, has helped tremendously. Having a husband who is supportive, loving, caring AND knowledgable about my condition is a major PLUS!!!

BUT my husband is NO more supportive of ME, than you and Lori of your men. Remember that.... You are doing something! You are gaining knowledge about BPD.
Hello Ladies,

How are you both this afternoon? This is a very interesting conversation we have been having. You both have so much in commom, both love men who are borderline, but they haven't acknowledged it yet. Both of you do about the same things after work. Both of you are intelligent, loving ,caring, and interested in knowing more about the emotional health of your loved ones. You are both walking on eggshells. Caught up in this nightmare of borderline personality disorder. You didn't ask for it, but you still love them in spite of it, you want to help, but you've come to realize, that RIGHT NOW, involvement cannot help either of you or your men.

I, on the otherhand, am a recovering borderline AND walking on eggshells. My niece, the 18 y/o one, is borderline, recoginized by her, but not enough to seek professional help AND my 13 y/o niece is pre-borderline. Their mother is agoraphobic, uneducated ( she left school in the 7th grade), and is a door mat when it comes to her children. She also has a 10 y/o son.

I applaud your strength :) , your willpower :) , and your determination. :)

I also applaud your desire to gain more knowledge about this problem. :)


You are doing so great! Taking a rug class! That's wonderful. I crochet, it's mindless also. Resisting the temptation to see your husband right now.


You are also doing great! Not responding to the IM's, except to remain neutral. Your Junior is a great joy to you and a comfort. I understand.
I'd be a basket case if I didn't have my babies (dogs and cats).

My husband is no saint. He has his flaws. For example: he does not work, has not worked in 5 years. hasn't looked for work. Anything is just good enough. He hates this town so much... eventhough he grew up here... he won't/can't work here. Of course, the only jobs here are gas stations, fast food, dollar store, etc... where they wouldn't hire him anyway. He DOES computer work freelance, so he's not completely financially deadbeat. He does NOT spend money haphazardly. He is NOT social. he doesn't like to go out, unless we're going to the park alone or to the store. He doesn't go to the free concerts and karaoke events in town. He wouldn't go to our town's annual harvest fest type event. He doesn't want to run into anyone he grew up with. I don't know if he is embarrassed because he has gained so much weight since high school, or because he just doesn't like these people anymore. but we have NO social life. He doesn't participate in family activities. I take care of Joe, HIS brother. he does drive his sister to the store or doctor when she needs to go, but he prefers to stay in car. I am the one going next door to visit.

I miss being social. I take my nieces and daughter when she's in to the music and karaoke events. I love karaoke! I like people. I need people. I don't care if they are strangers, I'm not shy. I'm extremely outgoing.

He doesn't like crowds, he hates the mall, unless it's one of those times when its practically vacated. He likes walmart in the middle of the night. We don't go out. We didn't go out much when we had income. I mean out to places where there would be PEOPLE. I really miss people. He doesn't go to my parents with me, he doesn't go to events at the college where my daughter attends. He doesn't mind MY going to these things. He doesn't say I can't go, or even hint that he doesn't want me to. He's ok if I go. But sometimes, ok, most of the time, I want to enjoy these things TOGETHER.

He has serious carpal tunnel in both hands. He has severe nerve damage in his arms and legs due to a back injury from years ago. He can't really work, not a "regular" job. He can't hold a coffee cup for more than a minute.

My parents don't like him because of the jobless situation AND because he's FAT! and he is...He's my teddy bear. He weighs around 320 lbs. He's only 5'8". He was a star football player in highschool and all the bulk used to be muscle. He was injured playing football. He is extremely intelligent, but didn't/couldn't go to college because he was the only one of 11 children that would stay home and take care of his dying mother. He lost a college football scholarship due to the injury. We can't afford for him to go now, but we are looking for grants/scholarships/work study programs.

He has almost NO temper. His fuse must be really long, because I have only seen him angry twice in five years. Never at me, no matter what kind of crap I put him thru. His anger amounted in a raised voice, and a fist slammed into a wall. The wall wasn't anywhere near the person he was mad at. I live with NO violence, finally. The only times he has ever raised his voice to me, was just to be heard over my ranting and raging. He would rather talk out a problem than sulk about it, like most men I know. He can see both sides of a situation.

He is not religious, doesn't want to go to church. I want to, but with him. He pretends to dislike our cats and dogs, then snuggle up to them when he thinks I'm not looking. He says he's frustrated with my daughter, who is schzophrenic, a freshman in college, a contant story-teller, who blows everything out of proportion, but he hugs her and helps her with her computer. He plays basketball with her. He puts his arm around her while watching a movie together.

He's never been controlling about the money. Never buys anything without discussing it first, and I mean anything, like motor oil or gas. He doesn't get stuff for himself at the grocery store. I can't have cookies, ice cream, etc unless they are low carb or sugar free. I am the one that throws the stuff he likes in the buggy for him.

He takes out the trash without being asked. He does dishes, except the glass ones that he may drop. He cooks, he cleans, he feeds the cats and dogs. He takes care of the car and the computers. He finds me my favorite movies and tv shows.

and HE LOVES ME...HE LOVES ME... no matter what I do, and I've done matter what I say, and I've said some pretty bad stuff... HE LOVES ME. No mater how I look....and I don't care for make up or hair care products when I'm not going I dress... mostly shorts and T's now....HE LOVES ME... I don't EVER have to worry about him leaving, he makes me feel like I'm the one that's holding HIM together. I don't ever feel panic or paranoid with him. I can tell him ANYTHING. I even told him that I was attracked to someone else..made him leave...dated this other guy....this was a before we got married.....and he didn't get jealous ( didn't let me know he was jealous) or upset or angry.... HE JUST LOVED ME....and waited....for three months....I came to my senses..... He's never brought it up, never asked questions about it.... JUST LOVED ME. HE WAS HERE....LOVING ME...and that is all that should matter.

My parents don't see it, but they've never acknowledged that I am borderline. All they see is that he doesn't work and that he is fat. His family sees it though. None of their husbands or ex husbands hug them for no reason. Or hold their hands... or kiss them out of nowhere....After five years he is still affectionate. He is still attracted to me Still grabs my... well you fill in the blank... when I walk by him....He never disrespects me, in private or in public.

As you can see, I could write all day about my husband, but I won't. I guess my point is, that you two seem the same way about your men. Always concerned about how THEY feel....

that's all for now..
Your husband loves you unconditionally! Thats what everyone hopes to find! You're one of the lucky ones! I'm so happy for you, that you can find security and comfort in your relationship.
One thing that struck me funny is that you said your parents have never acknowledged your BPD....even in your moms field? Even after knowing you had something wrong and she sent you for counselling? You've never discussed it with her? So who is your nieces mother? Your sister? or your husbands or ex-husbands sister? I hope you don't think I'm being nosy, I'm just trying to understand. Thank you so much for being honest and sharing your experiences. It does help! It also makes me feel good that you say that just acknowledging and understanding your BPD, makes it easier for you to deal with. The only thing is, I'm not sure my ex is evolved enough to look inside himself to try to understand. I think he goes thru life blindly lashing out at the world around him, never accepting any of the blame. Yes I'm trying to stay neutral, but I'm wondering if I'm stringing him along and should just not respond AT ALL.
Sorry to hear that your husband isn't very social. Do you think he has agoraphobia? It's good that he doesn't mind if you socialize, althought I know you would be happier if he went least he's not trying to control you or limit your socializing.
You say your husband is no more supportive of you than Lori and I are or our guys, but the difference is that you SEE FEEL his support. I don't think our men realize that they're being supported.......I don't think they realize that we're on their side.
Yikes Nakita - you REALLY answered my question! I hope I didn't open up a wound. Your mom sounds like she's in denial, big time. She doesn't want to be wrong about her diagnosis and she looks at it as a blemish on her record as a mom if she admits you have BPD. I'm sorry your mom hasn't been much of a support system at all to you. It's too bad (and ironic) that being a successful, intelligent woman, (who I'm sure has helped a lot of people), she is blind to the troubles of her own daughter. Maybe she is just too close to the situation to view it objectively. At least she did one thing right, she recognized you needed help and hooked you up with your Godmother, who sounds like an absolute ANGEL! Theres a good book called Toxic Parents by Susan Forward. Maybe you've read it already. I guess you just have to look at your mom as human, as we all are, with faults and accept her. What else can you do? I know you have rage, but don't let the rage poisen you in the process. You've come too far! And as far as marriages go, for you, 4th times a charm! LOL Be happy and do what's right for you, you've earned that right!
Hi Girls!

So much to catch up on between you two tonight! LOL Well, what I don't get to tonight, I will do on my break from work tomorrow. LOL Tonight I ran a bit late at work and rushed through dinner and mowing the front yard. Tomorrow's another day when it comes to the backyard. ;)

Rose, yes - I believe my inlaws have enabled Frank through the years. I think they've always bailed him out, rarely (if ever) questioned his stories, etc. I understand they do it because they love him, but they need to quit so their little boy can become a real man, not a pretend one. They are financially successful, so that makes it even easier for them. Maybe they're starting to open their eyes and see what's really going on...that not only are they supporting their grown son, but his friend as well - inadvertently.

Nakita, thanks so much for acknowledging our efforts. I'm sure I speak for both of us when I tell you how much it means. Regardless of what happens to my marriage, I will possess more knowledge than I did in the past. Maybe one day I can volunteer somewhere to help others with BPD, etc. I do try so very hard to learn, learn and learn and, of course, understand. I wish my husband would see me through your eyes. Your husband is an absolute angel, and I'm sorry that your parents fail to see how good he is TO YOU and FOR YOU. Beauty is only skin deep - and the only thing that matters is how he makes you feel. My husband could be a model with his blue eyes, long brown hair and slim, sexy build - but how beautiful is he in my eyes anymore with the way he treats me? Know what I mean? You just hug that big teddy bear every night - he's a keeper! :) And, since he sounds bigger than my husband, maybe he could come here to surprise my husband and whallop him a good one in the head! JUST KIDDING!! :D

Well, it's getting late so I'd better call it a night. I'm hanging in there but still depressed over the lack of response to my letter. I love him and miss him. I feel hated and written off and have no idea why. I'll read through these latest posts in the morning while I'm having coffee at work and will talk further. Hope you both are having a nice, relaxing night.

Hi Rose,

I know where you're coming from about me possibly making the first move one more time. Yet, I keep thinking of all the first moves I've made all this time and how little they seem to have done. For some reason, I just cannot bring myself to make any further moves. He went from being loving & affectionate to icy cold as though someone just flipped a switch. The last time I saw him, he looked like he was ready to jump out of his skin. He seemed EXTREMELY angry and mostly frustrated...tripping/walking into things, etc. That's why I'm wondering if there IS a drug problem...and maybe now that his father seems to be monitoring things such as his paychecks a little closer, it has become harder for him to indulge the habit since he would have to explain where the money went? Purely a guess on my part...but SOMETHING happened. In the past, he has never had a problem telling me when I've said or done something that was wrong in his eyes. He hasn't done that...nor has he made any contact to either apologize & smooth things over again OR ask me to get the dissolution/divorce thing finalized (which, by the way, he holds the final documents for, not me). I also wonder if his father is making the same statements that I've been making for quite some time because, if he is, then in my husband's paranoid mind he will think that his parents & I have been talking behind his back...which we really have not done other than a few isolated times and my comments were not accusing or anything.

For example, his mom and I had a face to face conversation one day when I waited in the truck. She came outside, gave me a big hug & a kiss through the window, asked me how I was doing, said they missed me & asked when we were getting back together. Not the reaction I expected AT ALL, considering he'd been telling me for over a year now how much his parents 'hate' me. I skipped over the question by saying that he was having a lot of financial difficulties & I was letting him focus on those problems. She then said, "He's never been good with money and he never will be. I just told my husband last night that one of these days we're going to find out that he's living under a bridge somewhere." I was shocked at this comment from her - as it told me they weren't as 'in the dark' as I'd thought. I mentioned that I'd offered to help him with banking/financial things and only said that it seemed to make him angry towards me. I also told her that I couldn't understand why he would want to support a friend at a time when he isn't paying his bills and stated, "That makes absolutely no sense to me at all." I also made her aware that it was MY inquiries at the bank that made the discovery as to what the electronic funds transfers were for (he thought the bank was ripping him off - it turned out to be the monthly fee for his business insurance that he CLAIMED to have cancelled late last year) and that even after I informed him that this was still being deducted from his account, he dragged his feet for MONTHS with getting it resolved. So there was no 'slamming' or anything towards him...just kindly worded statements. If nothing else, she walked away knowing that I HAVE tried to be helpful and I've been pretty patient with regard to these matters. So maybe that alerted his parents to start observing his paychecks a little closer - but I can't be sure.

Not too long ago, I'd surprised him by spending a Saturday afternoon making his favorite macaroni salad the way his mom makes it and showed up at the hotel with it that evening. He was tickled and really enjoyed eating it. I guess it doesn't occur to him that I could have opted to spend the time it took to make it visiting a friend, taking my dog to a park or just plain doing something for me. I keep thinking about how I wanted him to be happy with that surprise and keep wondering why the concept didn't 'stick'. There've just been oh-so many things I've done - renting movies that he told me he wanted to see and showing up with them. Picking up coffee creamer & sugar when I'd find a bargain since his friend goes through the stuff like water and all too often they'd be out of the stuff when he went to make a cup of coffee for himself. All sorts of 'little' things that would mean a lot to me if I were in that situation. I don't know...maybe I handled that all wrong, too.

Well, have a great day today with whatever you're doing. I'm chasing down all sorts of loose ends here at work today since tomorrow I'll be busy with payroll. Sure hope Nakita's feeling better today, too. She sure has a lot on her shoulders, doesn't she? She must be the pillar in that family! :)

Good Morning Ladies!

Got up bright and early today with my husband telling me that DHHR called about my state disability and needed to talk to me. I'm thinking, O NO, what now?
I called my worker and she said she's sending me papers so I can make appts with a neurologist and a psychiatrist to be evaluated for disability and they are going to pay!!! :bouncing: This is wonderful, because it means my case is moving forward!!! I can choose the doctors I want, which is also great since my neuro has been working with me for over 10 years now for the migraines, and the last shrink I saw was the one who diagnosed me bipolar in addition to bpd.

Maybe I will get it. This is just for a medicaid card, but that will help soooo much. I dont' know if you know or not, but when an adult over age 18 has medicaid, their prescriptions only cost $3 each. I could get that MRI I need, go to the dentist, to the eyedoctor, get better scripts!!! AND I've found out that there IS, FINALLY, a psychologist who SPECIALIZES in BPD at WVU hospital, which is only about 1/2 hour from me! Wouldn't that be great? :)

Rose: no you didn't open up any old wounds. One of the reasons I came to this board and others is that venting my rage this way is much healthier than holding it in. Helping others helps me. I've had mother issues all my life. Most people wonder why I still associate with her, but she's my mom, I love her. She tries. I haven't had any raging problems that are out of control in two years. BUT I do take xanax when needed. ;)

One more interesting thing that has happened, and very disappointing to me. My son, he'll be 21 in January, was arrested on Aug 7th for underage drinking, drunk and disorderly, destruction of property, and obstruction. The obstruction was because he refused to provide any info about himself, and he had a fake ID on him that could not be verified. The police did NOT charge him with possession of a fake ID, although they could have easily, but since he finally gave them his correct SSN, they didn't charge him with that. So, when he sees the judge on Aug 8th, he is given a $1500 bond, and sent to the regional jail. We don't have local jails anymore in WV. No one will bond him out. No me, even if I had the money, not my parents. AND his so-called friends didn't either. Three friends for $50 each or five friends with $30 each, and no one did it. I didn't bond him out or call my landlord, who is a bail bondsman, because this is the 5th time he's been arrested for underage drinking. I wanted him to learn a lesson. So did my parents. They've given him soooo many chances and he keeps screwing up.

Anyway, his hearing was Tuesday morning. I'm at the courthouse in the town he was arrested in, with my daughter because she wanted to see her brother, and my son comes in with his orange jumpsuit on, shackled and handcuffed. He barely acknowledges my presence. Now, I've accepted about 10 collect phone calls from him, talked with him, wrote him letters in jail, BUT I would NOT bail him out. He's basically expressionless. Doesn't talk much. THEN his roommate comes in, and my son is excited: "Hey Ray!" all happy to see him.
Ray brought my son clothes to wear and shoes in case he is released.

My son's sentence was 90 days in jail, 45 already served, the other 45 suspended and given a year probation. Plus restitution for the damage done to a car $500, plus court costs of $160 per charge, and a probation fee of $360. He also has to pay mileage for the transport from jail and for the witnesses time and mileage. He has six months to pay. So he goes and changes out of the orange jumpsuit, puts on his clothes and walks over to my car where me and my daughter are waiting for him. No hug, no hi MOM, nothing but "can I have a cigarette?" My daughter gives him a smoke, then he takes off with Ray.

My husband AND my mother ask why I would expect anything different. Why did I expect him to be happy to see me? I didn't bail him out, I didn't offer to give him money, I didn't even have a pack of smokes for him, so why be happy to see me?

J, my son, is so much like his father, who is an alcoholic and drug abuser. I left his father so J wouldn't be influenced to follow in his footsteps, but it's happening anyway. J's stolen from us, broken into our home, stole prescriptions and sold them, so I won't let him spend the night. I have to be tough. I won't pay his bills, I won't give him money. I'm pretty sure that he sells pot. But I would feed him if he needed fed. I've given him food from my pantry and freezer, but I won't give him money to buy food, cause I know he'd rather buy beer.

I know that I've talked about Rock Bottom before. J has not reached his yet. I had hoped that he would, sitting in jail for over 45 days. But obviously not. I just hope and pray that the next time I see him, it won't be in a hospital because he DOES drive and drink and smoke pot. But what can I do? He's an "adult" in the eyes of the law.

Lori: If a good head thumping would help your husband, I'd be happy to send my husband up there, (of course I would come too just to meet you :) :)

I'll be on later tonite,

That is WONDERFUL news about your approvals to go ahead with your medical appointments! :bouncing: That had to absolutely make your day. I'm very happy to hear that you'll be able to continue getting the care you're needing and through the doctors that YOU choose.

With regard to your note to Rose, I often wonder if I'm opening up any wounds with you as well and certainly hope you realize that is never, ever my intent. It has been so helpful and COMFORTING to talk to you. Your answers are always so honest and clear - sure helps me sort a lot out that spins around in my head 24/7. You and Rose have become my life-line's without a doubt. :) A week into this 'silence' period with my husband, I quit picking up the workbook. I hate not finishing things so I will probably put my nose inside of it tonight after I mow the backyard. :)

I'm so sorry to hear about the trouble your son has gotten into but agree with you on how you handled it by not getting him out of jail. I know that had to be a VERY hard decision for you as his mother. I feel so bad at the lousy 'reception' you had from him, too. You deserved better than that. While it's true that you didn't coddle him through the problem, you were nonetheless THERE and that deserves acknowledgement. Isn't it funny how friends can be treated better than family?! Oooohhh, is that ever a sore spot with me, Nakita. It certainly does hurt, doesn't it? He'll learn one day...when the friends are no longer there because they've got other commitments, etc. It's crystal clear to me that you are the ROCK in your family. One day those who fail to see it right now will come to realize the sacrifices you have made in order to help them. Just seems like that takes forever sometimes, huh? I'm like you - I don't expect anyone to grovel at my feet whenever I do something for them, just common courtesy and the respect of acknowledgement are enough of a thank you for me.

You mentioned that you like to crochet. Sure wish I could see you because I've got a TON of yarn that needs a good home. LOL My husband used to tease me about doing things like that or how I did it, so I sort of put it all off to the side. Then I got into this primitive rug hooking thing with his friend's girlfriend and just love it because it's even easier than crocheting. LOL It's not an inexpensive hobby, but I just by my materials as I need them and that seems to work out OK for my wallet. LOL

I hope you saw my other post about your thrush issue and my mom's suggested remedy. If not, take a look at it.

So far, I've been coping as well as can be expected in spite of no response to my letter. I'm not sure exactly what to make of it. I'd expected the raging phone call & so far it hasn't come, which is a relief...yet I'm still a bundle of nerves thinking it's bound to come sooner or later. Either way, he would need to contact me to either tell me to get lost & proceed with the dissolution or to just accuse me of attacking him unfairly, etc. I'm getting nothing at all...and I don't know what to make of it. It hurts yet it's a relief, know what I mean? I did close my letter to him with the following, which I hope reassured him as I know BPD's need:

"I'm serious when I tell you that you have very wonderful qualities & Iím serious when I tell you that I love you with all my heart and care about you! Yet you do not seem to recognize it, appreciate it or place any value on it. Thatís the perception I have. I wish you would nurture those wonderful qualities instead of drowning them in your anger. Do not think for one minute that I have abandoned you. Nor am I just sitting here holding a grudge as you may also be thinking. I simply do not feel as though you want me there. I am hurt, and I am bewildered. I donít feel that you want me around; that is the message I received the last time I saw you. You said you just wanted some time to yourself, and you have not contacted me since.

I've put a lot of time, thought and, above all else, my heart into this letter. Itís to tell you that you are loved and cared for. I hope you get something out of it. It's not meant to make you angry, it's meant to make you think."

So I'm hoping my final 2 paragraphs were OK and didn't push him the other way. Do you think I did OK here?

Well, I'll jump online later tonight. I still need to mow the backyard and maybe I'll take my chubby Stu for a much-needed brisk walk around the block. Hope you're having a terrific day with that great news this morning! I will talk to you later.

Hi Nakita & Rose,

Sorry I haven't been on much through the weekend. I just couldn't stand the thought of seeing my husband online and not IM'ing me or sending an email. He's online now but has an away message. There's been no email from him at all either. Quite disappointing to say the least...still no explanation and certainly no apology for the way I've been treated. That hurts.

I've been trying not to focus on any response from him. This weekend I kept busy reading my book, working around the yard and went to a sidewalk sale just to browse around and get out with a girlfriend. So I've been trying not to sit idle if I can help it.

Nakita, I'm sorry to hear about that pup, too. That had to be a heartbreaking experience for your niece. You're so much like me...the family vet tech. LOL Most of my background is with horses. I got my own dog a few months after an old relationship ended. Stu's been a great companion since. He's SNORING on the couch right this moment with a full belly.
Thanks for enlightening Rose and me a little bit more, too. You guys are really helping me to plug along here. Some days I just feel like being alone to have a good cry; other days I can't stand being without a girlfriend to yak with. I really appreciate your positive feedback on the way I closed my letter. Guess I'm still just struggling to understand the lack of'd think by now he'd either send me a nasty email telling me to get lost or shove it or some form of explanation or apology. I don't get this.

Rose, good luck with your tests. I know how scary that stuff is. I had a precancerous condition in the mid-90's and it was terrifying for me. The problem was caught early and I endured some pretty painful procedures, but the end result has been good. This was another disappointment with regard to my husband. The day before the appt (early in the week that he flipped on me), I mentioned that I had an appt the next day. He just said, "OK - talk to you tomorrow" and gave me my 4 kisses and I left. I remember feeling pretty disappointed that he had no interest in where/when the appt was and offer to go with me for moral support since I always dread the exams and any tests they decide to do on me right then and there.

I like the way you are sticking to your boundaries that you're establishing. It sure is hard, isn't it? I hope he reads the book and recognizes some things about himself. It still seems unfair that he just wants to use the counseliing as a bargaining tool. That's not what it's supposed to be all about, you know?

Well, I'll try to check back in later with you guys tonight. Or, tomorrow morning from work. My company wants to send me for some kind of training in Albany, NY the following week and I'm trying to weasel out of it. I'm already overwhelmed with my current responsibilities and right now my head just wouldn't be into it.

Hope you're both doing well and had a nice weekend! I look forward to hearing from you! :wave:


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