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Ok...I am 22, and secretly dating my bosses son. He's 30, and has been in a serious relationship with his girlfriend for the last six years. They own a home together, have a life together, but things have been going downhill for them for quite some time.

We (him and I) have so much fun together, we have alot in common and we genuinely care for each other. The sex is amazing and although I don't see a future with us (not a serious one anyways) I don't want this to end. No one knows about us, and having to not only hide it from his girlfriend, but also our numerous co-workers and his mother is getting strained.

I guess what I'm asking for here is opinions...am I being immoral by being with this man who is obviously already taken? Am I considered a ***** for my actions? How do you all feel about being the "other woman" in a mans life...personally, I feel no guilt, which might be wrong of me, but thats the way it is. I don't want a relationship with him, I am just enjoying the time we have together and the excitement of the secrecy.
OK, most people would definitely think that it is "wrong" and "immoral" to be with a man who is committed to another woman. But in my opinion, most people spend way too much time and energy judging other people, and the most important thing is to be happy with your own life. However, in general it is better to be honest...if I was going to point out anything about your situation that might cause you guilt, I think the fact that his girlfriend is in the dark about his infidelity would be the main thing. But otherwise, while the majority of people are going to disapprove of this, the truth is, most people are going to disapprove of how you live no matter what you do, because most people are miserable and bored with their own lives and therefore get some twisted pleasure out of condemning others. As long as you treat other people the way you want to be treated, I wouldn't worry. But still, you should be prepared for a lot of (not completely unfounded) disrespect and disapproval from society if things continue this way. On the other hand, my dad cheated on my mom (they got divorced when I was a baby) and is still, 20-something years later, with the other woman. She is a very kind and honest person, and the truth was, my parents were terribly mismatched and their relationship was dying anyway. In any event, I hope things work out for the best for you (and that you don't get jumped all over here...some people are very touchy when it comes to cheating).
I've had to draw a line somewhere, and for me it's marriage. When two people choose to marry they vow to each other. Until then, two people are free. These two haven't married, after 6 years, for a reason. At this point it becomes statistically less likely they will. So, at a certain point this relationship will end, unless they choose to make a binding committment. Having said this, your actions are deceptful and cheating, in your own eyes and in his eyes. It doesn't really matter what our opinions, of your behavior, are. It matters that you believe you are going against your own principles. So, can you live with a relationship YOU believe to be wrong? Are your beliefs correct and if yes, can you so easily toss them aside for simple pleasure? Because you believe this relationship is going nowhere, it can't be anything more. So, if you can toss your beliefs away, you'll have to live with that. If you can't, you'll have to do what you believe is right and take whatever action you need to make things right for yourself. If you don't know if what you are doing is right or wrong, I think you better decide quick.
On a side note, when a man knows you'll throw away your beliefs, for him, he knows he has you 100%. He doesn't have to work for you, to keep you and he can behave badly and take you for granted, and know you'll take it. He's behaving badly now by hiding you from his other lover. How do you know he isn't hiding another lover from you? If this relationship ever develops into something more, you'll know his patterns, because you are a part of them. So, when you see him hiding other women, from you, you won't be suprised. He's old enough to have created a moral standard for himself, it would seem that this is it. Can you live with his moral standard and take it as your own, as you are doing now?
Married or not, he shouldn't be cheating on her! Still, it's not as much your problem as it is his. I feel bad for the girl, if she really loves him and you don't want him seriously anyway. But, oh well, life is not fair. What kind of advice are you seeking? You seem fine with this casual sex arrangement and so does he. The only person who's in the dark is his partner, perhaps waiting for him to propose all these years. She's at the real disadvantage here, but then again, you don't have an obligation to her, so what do you care about? You're 22 after all and it will be easy for you to find another guy after this fling is over. Not trying to sound bitter, but well, wait till you're on the other side of the fence...
Once again Eve says it so eloquently, and I agree with everything.....
but one thing hasn't been mentioned, and I'm a little surprised.
This is your bosses son.....does your boss know about it? Also, you've had to have heard the saying that you don't craap where you eat, haven't you?
How much do you like your job, and is it worth losing/leaving if and when this thing blows up in your face? I'm not judging you, obviously as Eve says, your boyfriends relationship has gone on 6 yrs and no ring, so yes the odds get higher that it will ever come to that. But what kind of a guy is he who would do this to someone he's been with for 6 years?
Good point about the job, Rosequartz. NEVER GET YOUR HONEY WHERE YOU MAKE YOUR MONEY.
I also agree with Sophia, the only one in the dark is the live in GF, and I too feel for her. But, you know, I would ask her what her goals in life were and was being in a 6 year relationship, that is going nowhere, one of those goals. How long does a woman stay with a man without some kind of BINDING committment? And would you EVER go deeply into debt, on a house, with a man who hadn't fully committed to you? Understand me, I'm not blaming her for her decitful BF's behavior, but we all must ask ourselves how long we will wait for what we want, from a man and how much do we give while we are waiting? I don't think I would ever committ that much, time and money, to a man who hadn't made a binding committment to me. And, before the guys flame me, the guy isn't the only one hiding things here. I know that. ;)
Eve, there isn't another thing I could say to the original poster.
You've said everything I believe and then some.

Tana, Eve has given you alot to think about. And she's said it for the two of us, so make that double to think about...
:angel:
Thank you ruth, I've learned a lot of what I said from you. Especially the difference between a committment to living together and a binding committment made for life. So many of us think of marriage as disposable these days. If we believe that, how is it different then living together? There are differences. We've just forgotten them.
All of you guys have reminded me of the time when I was living with a guy back before I married. He and I were happy, well, at least I was until one day I discovered he was having an affair with a woman he worked with. At the time it has been going on for about 3 months and we'd been cohabitating for about 1 year. I was devastated. If felt like someone stuck a knife at my heart and my stomach and kept on twisting it. I remember at one point, I was so upset, I kicked him out of our apartment and I just stayed in bed all weekend, curled up, crying my eyes out. I didn't eat, didn't do anything but cry all weekend. The enormous betrayal that was done to me was unbelievably painful. Back then, I started to understand why some women loose faith in the opposite sex, faith in marriage and faith in commitment. But at the same time, I also promised that I wouldn't purposely hurt another woman.

Eve, you've taught me so much with your words of wisdom. I often search for your advices because like Rose said, say it so eloquently.

Tana, there's another woman you're hurting in the other end even if she doesn't know it at this time. I am a big supporter of women even though many has hurt me. We all need to support each other even when we don't know it. Like Eve said, if you can live with the morals that's going on within your relationship, then you don't really have a problem. But as I see it, you are here on this board asking people for advice, it's obviously bothering you.

Do the right thing even though it's the hardest thing to do. Good luck.

Peace.:D
[QUOTE]How long does a woman stay with a man without some kind of BINDING committment? And would you EVER go deeply into debt, on a house, with a man who hadn't fully committed to you? Understand me, I'm not blaming her for her decitful BF's behavior, but we all must ask ourselves how long we will wait for what we want, from a man and how much do we give while we are waiting?[/QUOTE]

Hey Eve, sorry but I have to disagree with ya. I don't think marriage is necessary at all in order for two people to prove their love. I have no respect for the institution of marriage since in my country, some people are actually forbidden from it. Which makes it seem more like a quaint, silly little clique than anything else, and I ain't interested in joining. I definetly would never go into debt on anything though, well mostly since I have a rule that I never pay for anything.

To the OP - it sounds like you are having a lot of fun, but this just seems like one of those situations that could come back to bite you in the butt in a big way. It's all fun and games for awhile, but as you are seeing, the strain is starting to catch up with you. I would just hope, for your sake, that you don't end up truly falling for this guy. Could get messy.

I think you're just still young and selfish - and hell I ain't judgin', because I'm about your age and pretty selfish myself, still. But hopefully this is something you grow out of, and don't end up being, say, 30 and still only thinking about your needs and no one else's. Then that would be sad.
I disagree that most will disaprove how you live no matter what you do. Some thinsg are so fundamentally at odds with accepted ethical standards that they deserve to be pointed out. Doing what you are doing is dishonest at its core. One need not judge you as a person to point out the wrong being committed here. There are limits to what you should do towards seeking happiness. One of those boundaries aught to involve he consideration of universally accepted ethics - honesty and respect being a couple.

His gf is likely clueless. It is unfair to her to keep her in the dark while you know you are participating in an activiy that is a basic right for her to know. She deserves the dignity to make a choice. You deserve to pursue your happiness, but not when that pursuit is unethical at its core.

There is opportunity to rationalize this in all sorts of ways, but it wouild not change the the fact that you are conspiring to contribute to a great injustice to another person and would likely not wish this same to be done do you, were you her.
Hello All-
I've seen some very interesting posts and opinions on this situation and can understand where everyone is coming from. I have to point out a couple of things here.

First sweetie- this guy is your bosses son- it's not the best idea to "get your honey where you get your money" as another poster stated. It's not usually a good idea to mix the two together- especially when it involves the bosses son. Too many reprecussions if people find out.

This guy, whether he's married to his girlfriend or not, is in some kind of comitted relationship. They have been together for 6 years and own a home together. That in itself makes it clear there is some level of comitted relationship. I personally wouldn't want to stay with a man for 6 years without a "formal" marital commitment, but there are women and men alike who just do not feel that marriage is needed to have a long term relationship. This could be the case with your "bf" and his gf.

I'm not judging you, so please do not take it this way. You have to do what you are comfortable with, but sweetie, if the roles were reversed, and you were the girlfriend who had comitted 6 years of your life with this man, loved him, gave your heart to him, and invested in a home together with him. If you were the one basically living as his wife, cooking his meals, doing his laundry, keeping his home clean and comfortable for him, would you want another woman to come in and have the fun of having a secret, exciting sexual relationship with him?

You say that you aren't looking for a commitment, but then you also say that you don't want for this thing between you and him to end. It sounds like maybe there are some feelings being developed here. It's fine to want to be young and enjoy the experience of being free to be with whomever you want to be with, but, right now, this guy is in a relationship with someone else. What you are doing can and will hurt someone else when it comes out. Your job could be in jeopardy as well if anyone finds out what's going on. Then what happens? You lose your job, your exciting relationship with your bosses son and what will you be left with?

Again, I agree with another poster who said "treat others the way you would like to be treated". So, if you truly have no guilt over this whatsoever and would be fine with another woman and your bf doing this to you, then by all means, continue as you are. You might need to be prepared for the fall out though, because many times, these secret relationships don't stay secret but for so long.

In my opinion, cheating is cheating and it's wrong. Period. I'm not judging because it's not my place, but since you asked for other people's opinions, I had to put mine in there. I also have to add that if your "bf" is the kind of guy who will cheat on his gf of 6 years, then comittment probably isn't one of his stong points. You probably aren't his first sexual fling and probably won't be his last either.

Good Luck Girl! :wave:
Ok...I should further explain some things here (thanks for all the input though, its interesting to see different opinions)

For my job...I'm not concerned over losing it, because I'm going back to school in three weeks. As of then, I won't be employed there, not full time anyways. My boss doesn't know, and doesn't suspect a thing. In fact, she considers me one of her most valuable employees and we have a good relationship. I'm not worried about her finding out anything.

I completely understand that there is a huge committment between his gf and him...however, the committment at this point is mostly based on loyalty. He doesnt' feel the same way towards her, and things are slowly unravelling between them. She isn't happy with him, he isn't happy with her...its basically just they want to keep it together because of the history, and the home they purchased I think...then again, I'm just going on what I've been told and what I've seen. And, like I said before, I'm in no way interested in seriously being with this guy. I got out of a very messy relationship awhile ago, and have no interest in being with anyone for that matter. Right now, I just want to enjoy being single, and right now,that means enjoying what I have with him now. Which is alot of fun, alot of good sex, and a really good friendship.

I do feel bad for his gf...in some ways anyways. Alot of the problems in the relationship have been hers to own up to...they dont' have sex anymore because she doesn't want him sexually, she's always freaking out on him for stupid things, like going out for dinner with buddies of his...he's stressed out and has told her that her behaviour is driving him away,but she does nothing to change it. I know she's being kept in the dark, but thats not my problem...he can be open with her if he wants, but thats his decision. I'm just out to look after myself here, not her.

And as for morally, if I can deal with this? Yes, I can. I don't feel guilt, I am at a point in my life right now, where I left a horrible relationship, and am ready to finally make my own choices...I was in an abusive relationship and I never was able to do anything...now I feel free, and whether I am making the right choices or not, they're MY choices, and I'm happy where I am.
Hi Tana,
I've been reading these posts . I am a wife that has been on the recieving end . My husband started cheating a year and 4 months into our marriage. I know the things he says to these women. I've actually read them in Emails he's sent to them. And nothing he said was the truth with the exception that he was married and had two sons. The rest was bull. One thing you will find out as your life goes on is there are always three sides to a story, my side , your side and the truth. Unless you have talked to HER I would not believe ANYTHING he says about their relationship. Men like this guy that you are seeing will say anything to garner sympathy to get what they want from you and this guy did that. You see this as fun which is disturbing. Causing hurt intentionally to another is wrong. She will feel as if her heart was ripped out when she finds out. I am not one for wishing bad things on people but one day I hope you find out just how it feels to be the one betrayed .
One more thing,your boss will not feel anything like she does now for you after she finds out. It is usually just a matter of time before these things are exposed.
I would never want my daughter to do what you are doing. I would want her to respect herself more. I wouldn't want her to have her "fun" at the expense of another person.The fact you posted this issue says to me that there may be a part of you that has a problem with this.
I don't mean to come off preachy. I really don't. My hope is that you will end this soon.

Sherri
I agree with Too Sweet. Men usually lie to the woman they are cheating with. Um, hello, obviously they are liars! They always say that their girlfriends/wives are not having sex with them anymore. Big lie. He is having sex with her, you can bet on that. If he was that miserable he wouldn't be with her anymore.
I know he is not lying to me, because his mother has expressed the same feelings about his girlfriend that he expresses to me. I know his mother would not lie about something like that, and she dislikes his girlfriend as much as he does. So thats not an issue with me.

And I am not having fun at the expense of someone else: he is. This is his relationship, not mine. And for the record, I have been cheated on in the past. I know how it feels, but I know how it feels when it wasn't warranted. He has expressed to his gf what would happen if the behaviour and treatment continued...she doesn't care.

I'm not wrong, I'm not doing anything bad...I am just having a fling with a coworker. I'm not cheating, he is.
[QUOTE=tanabear6]I do feel bad for his gf...in some ways anyways. Alot of the problems in the relationship have been hers to own up to...they dont' have sex anymore because she doesn't want him sexually, she's always freaking out on him for stupid things, like going out for dinner with buddies of his...he's stressed out and has told her that her behaviour is driving him away,but she does nothing to change it. I know she's being kept in the dark, but thats not my problem...he can be open with her if he wants, but thats his decision. I'm just out to look after myself here, not her.[/QUOTE]

Hmm..I take it she's sat you down and explained all of this herself. If not, you're hearing this secondhand, correct? Who are you hearing it from? Is this person credible? Do they have a tendency to lie? Would they possibly have a motive to keep the truth from you?

Sorry, but I take the mother's statements with a grain of salt. She is getting this info from her son, right? Or is she feeling sexually deprived from this woman, too?

I mean, if you're happy with your role in all of this, so be it. But rationalizing "being the other woman" partly based on statements he's said to you about his home life is living your life wearing rose-colored glasses.

What I can't understand is how you would choose to stay in this situation coming from a previous bad relationship. I know you said you need to think about yourself, make your own choices, etc. Does all the lying, sneaking around, thinking about him lying in bed with her in their home really make you feel good?

I'm just trying to look at this with a bit of common sense. People cheat. Not all, but some do. No judgment here. But, man, if I had a dollar for every time I've read on these boards alone just the last six weeks this excuse of cheaters, "I'm just not getting it at home, my spouse is a nag," I could quit my job. Isn't there a better line these folks could come up with to get into someone else's pants?
As a woman that's living with a man and have also been married, I'm going to say to treat him as if he was a married man because as far as my relationship with my BF...he's basically just as committed to me as any husband would be to a woman. We are married without a ring or piece of paper. I suppose not everyone's relationship is like this but his GF probably feels just the same as if he were her husband. I believe that he's a cheater and this is cheating just as if they were married. Expect that if you get caught for everyone to treat you like dirt and be mad as H at you...this is how it goes down because I've seen it happen. I am not trying to judge you because I've done some things that I personally have been treated like I'm dirt so that's why I'm saying this because I know from experience. It seems fun and exciting but people will not be real pleased with you if they find out what y'all are doing together behind closed doors! If you don't care with they think of you then go for it.
"And for the record, I have been cheated on in the past. I know how it feels, but I know how it feels when it wasn't warranted."

I think it would be very hard to explain to his girlfriend that his cheating was "warranted." I'm not so sure that she would see it this way.
Tana,
One more little thing.... If he is that terribly unhappy then he should leave THEN find someone . You are just as much to blame as he is. You are participating ...... Unless his mother is living with them I would not take her word as gospel either. She is, like a previous poster said, getting it from her son.I also think discussing her son's gf isn't right in the work place. that honestly would be none of your business anyway. Since you know how it feels....why do it to someone else? Like I said, three sides to every story. He's that unhappy leave,sell the house and move on. End of story. Be a man about it not a coward. And in my eyes that is what he is. That is exactly how I see my husband,soon to be ex as soon as I can manage it. You better believe that guy is still sleeping with his wife. I wish you would really listen to the wisdom offered here to you and take it to heart. Look him in the eye and ask him why he doesn't just leave her?If he can't maintain eye contact don't believe him. They have no kids I hope. If they don't the whole thing is simpler. She has the right to know if she is being exposed to anything , she also should have the right to seek happiness with someone who will respect her and love her not cheat on her like this guy. You don't know her , certainly in no way enough to call what you two are doing as "warranted".

Sherri
I don't think I'd take a whole lot of stock in what he's telling you is their relationship...That's just one person's side to the story. She may be freaking out because of the way he's treating her, maybe she's freaking out because she thinks he's having an affair? In any case, he should be breaking up with her not trying to fill a relationship void by having sex with another woman and hurting his current GF. Is he staying with her because she depends on him for financial support? Still though, he's doing her no favors by staying and cheating...it gets to a point where they are nothing but roommates. They need to both just go their seperated ways if they have no relationship anymore.
I think you have rationalized away your responsibility to another human being, as so many do in this situation. You may one day come to accept your responsibility of deception to this other woman. Many rationalize to avoid a sense of guilt and thus allow it to continue.

It is simply unethical to take part in such a deception. Forget morals and beliefs, this is a universal wrong that cannot be handed off or discarded, only temporarily rationalized away.
:rolleyes: Hey there, well, you sound to me as though you have what i call "A really good Male Attitude", about this affair (if we can call it this) my point is this, if you hadnt got this approach, i would say stop now! but as long as you feel sure YOU wont get hurt by any of this, and you can keep a level head about it all (even if things do stop), then continue and enjoy, most people think this sort of thing is immoral, however if you are having a good time and you get along together in your (own world) the two of you have created, you should not feel bad at all, just guard your own feelings and if either of you feel like you are falling in love or wanting that bit more COOL it for a while then pick up again, you sound smart so you will always be able to throw certain friends and relatives and co-workers of the scent, so you are not caught out, just keep your dignity and grace about you at all times, (this sort of thing has been happening for years and years) just no-one spoke so honestly of it then, Enjoy.............and believe me none of us belong to anyone .....we enter the world alone and we leave the world alone.......think about it... we are a long time dead, and life is no rehearsal!
[QUOTE=tanabear6]

I know his mother would not lie about something like that, and she dislikes his girlfriend as much as he does.

And for the record, I have been cheated on in the past. I know how it feels,

I'm not wrong, I'm not doing anything bad...I am just having a fling with a coworker. I'm not cheating, he is.[/QUOTE]


So his mum dislikes this girl as much as him! so why is he actually still with her then? is she holding a gun to his head? I bet the reality is far different - as he certainly doesn't seem slow in getting what he wants from people!

You say you have been cheated on, and you know how it feels - well sorry, but I can only say you are being a tad hypocritical here.

Yes this guy may be cheating, he is with someone! no you are not cheating, you are single. But what is wrong here, is that you KNOW he is attached to another lady, and you choose to turn a blind eye.

Yes you have a right to happiness, also to have a no strings sexual relationship with a man if you so wish, But choose someone who is like you, SINGLE!
Are you being immoral? I don't think so, because you are not committed to anyone. He is. So morality, in the strictest sense of the word, is kind of a non-issue. How do I feel about being the other woman in a man's life? Well, the last time it happened I was seventeen, and I can't say that I would do it now, in my thirties. And it's not due to some strict moral code that I have, it's really more about the fact that I just wouldn't find a guy who does that sort of thing attractive.

Are those really the questions that you wanted answers to? It seems like you need someone to tell you that this is okay, but on the other hand you insist that you're okay with it. Are you?
I was the 'other woman' until very recently, however my situation differs to yours in that I was (and am :( ) head over heels in love with this man (who is engaged). I would not put myself through it and risk his relationship if I didn't feel it was the real thing. That is not to say that not respecting another's relationship is ever not wrong, however when you are in love and hoping he will leave his relationship for you, then you rationalise it.

I also think, and ended up telling him, that I don't want to be just his 'bit on the side', that I think I am worth more than that. It's about having some self-respect.

So yes, I do think it's wrong when this is nothing serious to you, you are hurting a relationship for a bit of fun. Also, you may not feel like this forever, and being the Other Woman when you really feel strongly is soul-destroying.

If you don't see it going anywhere, is it really worth it?
[QUOTE=Spaceyspace].... however when you are in love and hoping he will leave his relationship for you, then you rationalise it.

[/QUOTE]
Exatly. It is rationalization that allows people to do the things they would otherwise never do and would advise others against doing. Rationalization is the nemesis to character.
Yes it is, Music.
I'm not sure what tana wants by writing about her situation here. It's as though she enjoys being the bad-guy in real life and on this board. I don't know if being abused previously has made her emotionally void, or she's just angry and wants desperately to get even with someone; anyone.
If her excuses of this affair weren't so sad they'd be laughable ( I suppose this guy's mom hangs out in their bedroom, and can affirm the dying sexual aspect of this relationship?) Hmmm... maybe the guy's girlfriend doesn't like him going out with his guy-friends because she suspects he's a CHEATER. Sure their relationship is bad, yup, she probably senses he's not commited and is cheating.
I see this as the perfect situation for tana. Tana can get all her anger and aggression out, have the excitement of a booty call, and have no commitments on top of it all.
I just hope tana doesn't believe in Karma.:cool:
[QUOTE=tanabear6]I'm not wrong, I'm not doing anything bad...I am just having a fling with a coworker. I'm not cheating, he is.[/QUOTE] There is a point in life where having values matters. Maybe you haven't reached that point yet.
In any event, like Eve, I have a hard time treating cheating as if it is adultery when people aren't married...

That said, the difference between a single woman cheating with a guy who is living with someone longterm or a married guy, is the difference between being an accessory to manslaughter or accessory to murder.
You don't get off entirely scott free either way.

(You really should have been single in the 70's. No committments, no love requirement before sleeping together. Of course it goes nowhere and means nothing, but isn't that what you want??)

I also think that you get some sort of enjoyment out of rattling our cages here, so I wish you well, wish I could hear from you 10 yrs from now and see where you stand, but till then I'm passing this thread by...
Best wishes to you,
:angel:
[QUOTE=Ruth6:11]
In any event, like Eve, I have a hard time treating cheating as if it is adultery when people aren't married...

That said, the difference between a single woman cheating with a guy who is living with someone longterm or a married guy, is the difference between being an accessory to manslaughter or accessory to murder.
You don't get off entirely scott free either way.
[/QUOTE]

I usually agree with Ruth, but in this case, I don't see a difference in the effects of cheating, whether this couple is married or not. They've been together six years--how would his cheating in this case be a lesser evil than, say, if a guy cheated on his wife after being together for one year, or six months?? It's just as emotionally devastating, whether she's legally married to him or not.

But that's beside the point, I guess. While it might be hard to understand that the poster seems to have no remorse for her actions, it is, in fact, not her problem. The guy in the committed relationship is the real villain here. If it wasn't this girl, there would be another one who he would cheat with. There will always be a woman out there willing to sleep with someone else's man. That's just the reality unfortunately.
[QUOTE=SophiaM]I usually agree with Ruth, but in this case, I don't see a difference in the effects of cheating, whether this couple is married or not. They've been together six years--how would his cheating in this case be a lesser evil than, say, if a guy cheated on his wife after being together for one year, or six months?? It's just as emotionally devastating, whether she's legally married to him or not.
[/QUOTE]
Because there is a difference between being married and living together. Why do men not marry their partners if they are fully committed? Because they ARE NOT fully committed and still have an eye out for someone new. That is the difference between marriage and living together. Anyone who believes there is no difference, is seeing only what they want to see or burying their heads in the sand, about their man's level of committment. IF A MAN WERE 100% COMMITTED, MARRIAGE WOULDN'T BE A PROBLEM. I truly believe this. I think women MUST realize that when a man says he doesn't want to marry, what he means is that he doesn't want to MARRY THEM. He may very well marry somebody, but it won't be them. It is a waste of a woman's time, love and money, to stay with a man who hasn't proposed, after a decent amount of time or has said no to the idea of marriage. There is, indeed, a small group of men who will never get married, but it is a small group and most women's resistant partners don't fall into that group. These men often get married as eartly as 6 months after meeting a new woman. And, if you are with that small percent of men who will never marry, well, there's a reason they don't want to marry isn't there? They don't want to be tied down, translated that means they want to be free of serious committment should a new woman come along. Again, I'm not saying ANY of this is the live in GF's fault. My only concern for her is why she would stay with a man who hadn't married her in 6 years, and if she never wanted to marry him at all, why she would put so much on the line, financially and legally, for a man not 100% committed to her.
If this man were 100% committed to this woman, he would have married her. It doesn't make his behavior any less wrong or any less a betrayal, but he also knows he hasn't taken any vows of committment, either. And, IMO, it doesn't make the OP's any better either. Sophia is right, the OP's behavior does not take into account the pain she could potentially be causing another woman. Women put up with enough pain from the men in their lives who choose to cheat. Not all men, just the cheaters. It is doubly painful to know a fellow woman participated in that pain. And it is a poor excuse to say, another man hurt me so now it's my turn to use another man as I see fit and cause another woman pain in the process.
You can not expect committment, as sacred, until it is given, as sacred. Women and men cheat themselves when they believe it isn't necessary and anything else is just as binding. Even sacred committment is often broken these days. How can we expect any other kind to last?
I think there are alot of good points here. I think Desert may be on to something with the whole anger thing. I think that may very well be part of this whether Tana will admit it or not. That being said she does have a choice NOT to be the "other "woman". He'll cheat with someone no matter what. Wether it's her or another. I believe in taking responsibilty for what you do. Like it or not she is a part in hurting someone else. I am really agreeing with those who suggested that the GF may be acting in such a way BECAUSE she feels he's cheating. I've done it myself. He should be man enough to leave if he is not happy. Work out what ever needs to be and end it with the GF. Not expose her to any more hurt or possible health issues either. I say that because the poster has no idea if this guy is having his"fun" with others as well. Or for that fact how many others there have been. I doubt he'd be honest about that. I hope that this young lady gets help for her abuse issues. They seem to be directing the way she is dealing with this. I wish the best for her.
I don't think this has anything to do with the fact that I was in (and am still dealing with it legally) an abusive relationship. Aside from the fact that its scarred me to the point of not wanting another relationship, thus being happy with my situation now.
tanabear you never answered my question....how happy are you with your job and are you willing to have to leave it?
is your fling worth it?
[QUOTE=rosequartz]tanabear you never answered my question....how happy are you with your job and are you willing to have to leave it?
is your fling worth it?[/QUOTE]

i've already stated that i am leaving my job in three weeks anyways to go back to school. so it doesn't really matter how much i like my job, or how afraid i am to lose it...i'm giving it up anyways to return to college.
Treat people as you would have them treat you. The old saying what goes around comes around in other words "whatever you sow that shall you reap" it may not be now, but it will come, later. It is like that Murphy law well this is God's word. You cannot get around it. It maybe be fun now, but when it happens to you in a relationship or your marriage think about what you did in the past. Remember there is a consequence for everything we do in life whether it be good or bad.:wave:
I really believe that also. What we do comes back, good or bad. Worries me that the poster has so little care for another human being. I hope with age comes wisdom and empathy . I have always believed the same ,treat others as you would be treated.

I also believe that the abuse she endured has much more of an effect on her than she'll admit. Noone comes out of a situation of abuse unscathed.

Take care
[QUOTE=Too Sweet 74]Hi Tana,
I've been reading these posts . I am a wife that has been on the recieving end . My husband started cheating a year and 4 months into our marriage. I know the things he says to these women. I've actually read them in Emails he's sent to them. And nothing he said was the truth with the exception that he was married and had two sons. The rest was bull. One thing you will find out as your life goes on is there are always three sides to a story, my side , your side and the truth. Unless you have talked to HER I would not believe ANYTHING he says about their relationship. Men like this guy that you are seeing will say anything to garner sympathy to get what they want from you and this guy did that. You see this as fun which is disturbing. Causing hurt intentionally to another is wrong. She will feel as if her heart was ripped out when she finds out. I am not one for wishing bad things on people but one day I hope you find out just how it feels to be the one betrayed .
One more thing,your boss will not feel anything like she does now for you after she finds out. It is usually just a matter of time before these things are exposed.
I would never want my daughter to do what you are doing. I would want her to respect herself more. I wouldn't want her to have her "fun" at the expense of another person.The fact you posted this issue says to me that there may be a part of you that has a problem with this.
I don't mean to come off preachy. I really don't. My hope is that you will end this soon.

Sherri[/QUOTE]

My ex-BF did... the "other woman" that he worked with approached me while I was at the grocery store... I wanted to kick her arse! She had the audacity to come up to me after what she'd done (and she knew I existed and still went on). She apologized to me and told me the lies he'd told her to get her into bed. I didn't give her the satisfaction of answering her. I called security instead.

Your cheating BF is using you as a crutch Tana.

Like Too Sweet said, we wish no harm on anybody, but remember Karma. And hon, at my age, I've seen it come around very many times.

Good luck.
hmmm, have you got conseling for the abusive relationship you were in? If not, I think for anyone that has gone thru abuse it is somewhat of a necessity in order to lead the once normal life they had before the abuse came into play again. What you are doing is going against the norm, meaning while "normal" people do find themselves in the same situation you are in- either cheating or being cheated on- they dont display behavior such as yours- the aloofness, insensitivity, lack of desire for a loving reltionship... etc. So while you convince yourself that you are having fun- it probably goes so much deeper then that and it probably all stems from the abusive relationship you were in. You most likely do not even realize this at a conscious level- probably because you have stopped yourself from even going there- because for you it would be too painful, right? So my guess is, this is not who you are, but what has become of you- a product of an abusive relationsip. You need to get conseling so you can have someone help you to deal with the pain rather then going on and expressing it an unhealthy mannor such as this- it might feel good and easy now to do what you are doing but down the line at some time you are going to have to deal with what happened to you- and you dont want to be doing that only because you have found yourself with nothing left.
hi have been reading this thread and find that whilst i do not agree with cheating I also do not agree that it is 'different' juts because they are or are not married. Regardless of marriage, living together is a serious committment and one that i personally do not take lightly. I have been living with my BF for 2 years and we have been in a relationship for 4 years. Just becasue we have not yet married does not mean that he does not want to commit to me or i to him or that we are keeping and 'eye out' for someone else! thats is absurd! it is the 21st Century and often couples do live together now to find out if they are compatible first before jumping head first into marriage purely because they wanted to prove their commitment! My BF and i have both discussed marriage and are confident that we will eventually become 'legally committed' as some of you put it but right now as a newly qualified attorney, i have a career to think about and not whether just beacuse we aren't married we are any less committed. I can assure you that I am fully committed to my BF and would not consider cheating and I know he feels the same. We are a partnership, just like in marriage and have the same trials and tribulations as any married couple. Cheating on him or vice versa would signal the end of our union, married or not and i certianly would not accept that it was not cheating just because we aren't married..that is ridiculous!
while I agree that cheating during marriage is probably worse than cheating while living together, I still don't think cheating while living together is something to be taken lightly. There is still a committment there, they own a house, etc......
That's like saying oral sex isn't really sex.
I don't buy that either.
cheating is cheating. if someone doesn't have good character before the ring is on the finger, what makes you think if they're married things would be any different?
From reading through relationship forums...[B]we should all know[/B] that even if you are just dating someone...in a committed relationship...cheating is devastating to the one that's being cheated on. So just because someone's not married..that person is still cheating and cheating is never a good thing.
There is no caveat here and no one is saying what this man, and the OP, is doing isn't wrong or devstating to the live in GF. We are saying men and women choose not to marry and instead live together, for a reason. The level of committment IS different, like it or not, it is.
so eve are you saying that no one should expect fidelity unless there is a ring and a marriage certificate? if that were the case, how would anyone ever get to that point? I don't believe that someone is "free" up until the point that ring is on their finger......that's one reason I'm so against bachelor parties.....I don't think it's OK to cheat, ring or no ring.
I also don't need a piece of paper or a ring to LOVE someone completely, so I don't think I need a piece of paper and a ring to define betrayal.
[QUOTE=eve40]There is no caveat here and no one is saying what this man, and the OP, is doing isn't wrong or devstating to the live in GF. We are saying men and women choose not to marry and instead live together, for a reason. The level of committment IS different, like it or not, it is.[/QUOTE]

I agree that most of the time when a couple doesn't marry after a reasonable period of time, it indicates one or both might be afraid of fully committing to the other, but there are always exceptions to that rule. My oldest cousin married his girlfriend after 10 years of being together (and living together). Another couple that my friend knows married after 15 years together (they met as freshmen in college and dated all this time, including living together). Women often stay because they'd rather be with that person unmarried than not at all. I stayed with my ex for four years also and well, it's a gamble and I lost, but you can't guarantee a marriage lasting these days, either. Just because a man marries a woman doesn't necessarily indicate higher commitment--my old neighbor's husband started cheating on her only a few months after their wedding, and after 3 years of marriage, they are now divorced.
Tanabear-
I really want to address the issues you are dealing with from your past abusive relationship. Sweetie, my first husband was abusive to me in every way a man can be abusive to a woman, mentally, sexually, physically- you name it. It was a horrid relationship and he had me so manipulated that for some time, I felt that I deserved his treatment and that I wasn't worthy of being loved and treated kindly by a man. I eventually came to my senses and ended that relationship before he got so abusive that I ended up being severly injured or even dead.

Yes- it does leave you scarred, and it does make you want to never trust a man again, but if you can not move beyond this on your own, then you do need to speak with a psychologist and find a way to get through this so you can go on to enjoy a healthy relationship with another man. I swore off any kind of relationship after I got out of my first marriage, BUT with time, I realized that I was only causing myself more pain by not allowing myself to trust another man. I eventually had to deal with my feelings and had to work through them. I was able to do that and am now married to the absolute best man in the world. He loves me and treats me the way a woman deserves to be treated- with love, kindness and caring. I treat him the way he deserves to be treated as well.

Whether you want to admit it or not, your words and posts strongly indicate that you have not been able to work through and get over the damage your former abusive boyfriend treated you. If you allow this to continue to control you, then you will not be able to trust another man and go on to enjoy a relationship that is true and lasting. Why cheat yourself and miss out on having a man love and adore you? Why allow yourself to be a sex toy for some guy? Don't you think any better of yourself? Don't you think you are worth more than that?

Two wrongs don't make a right Tana, and you just keep saying that you aren't cheating. You say that he is, BUT you are helping him cheat. You are an accessory to his affair going on behind his GF's back. I would deffinately compare it to someone saying, "Well, my friend robbed the bank. I didn't. I only drove the get away car for him. I didn't break the law, he did." And although that is technically true, there is responsibility on your part here. You know he is in a relationship with someone else and justifying it doesn't make this any less hurtful to the girlfriend.

You were hurt previously and now it seems that you feel that because of that it's ok to hurt someone else. Two wrongs don't make a right Tana, no matter what kind of "spin" you put on it. Yes, your "BF" is in the relationship with his live in GF, but again, you are also sleeping with him so you do bear some of the responsibility whether you accept and believe that or not. You know there is a GF yet you chose to continue to help drive a wedge between them. This would all be different if you had no idea there was another person involved.

I started seeing a guy years ago, and it just so happened that I found out he had a live in GF and when I found out, I confronted him about it. He gave me the whole song and dance that their relationship was on the "skids" and he wasn't happy with her. Regardless of what he was saying, I wasn't about to knowingly help destroy that relationship, so I ended it immediately and told him I wouldn't be a part of it. Come to find out, they were actually engaged and planning a wedding. I had to do what I felt I could live with, and being involved in an affair with someone who has a girlfriend isn't something I can do. That's me, that's how I am. Some people, like yourself have no problem with it at all, and that is your choice. Again, you do need to be aware, that if this guy is messing around with you, there probably have been other women and may even be other women currently as well.

I hate that you had to endure abuse from another human being because no one deserves that. And again, I'm not judging you at all. I say these things out of concern because I know exactly what abuse from a man can do to a woman. It's not pretty, and it does leave scars. How we chose to deal with working through the pain is up to us, and it sounds like maybe you haven't fully come to terms with what your former BF did to you. And if I am wrong, and you have come to terms with it, then I have to say that it's left you with a terrible outlook on the possibility of a wonderful and loving future relationship with a man that will treat you with respect, love and kindness.

Take Care
[QUOTE=rosequartz]so eve are you saying that no one should expect fidelity unless there is a ring and a marriage certificate? if that were the case, how would anyone ever get to that point? I don't believe that someone is "free" up until the point that ring is on their finger......that's one reason I'm so against bachelor parties.....I don't think it's OK to cheat, ring or no ring.
I also don't need a piece of paper or a ring to LOVE someone completely, so I don't think I need a piece of paper and a ring to define betrayal.[/QUOTE]
No Rose, I'm saying the marriage puts both people, on the same page with the same vow and offering the same committment. This issue is the perfect example of what I'm talking about. Obviously the live in Gf is 100% committed, she even agreed to buy a house with the cheater guy. But cheater guy? Not only has he not married live in GF, his devotion lasted 6 years and now he's cheating on her. It's pretty clear, in this situtation, that he never planned on marrying her, but did live in GF, ever figure out that or is she living under the notion that he is as equally committed to her, as she is to him? I'd bet she is because she believes, or believed at some point, that they were equally devoted to each other. A legal and/or spiritial committment tell both partners that they are each committed enough to make a go of it for life, at least at that moment in time, because I really don't believe most people marry thinking it'll be a great ride for 4 or 5 years, then splitsville. I think most people marry on the assumption that it's "till death do us part". No, it doesn't always work out that way and yes, sometimes husbands/wives do cheat, but at least they were committed ENOUGH at one point to create a lasting partnership and the bonds are important. Sometimes enough for two people to try to save. If a man, or a woman, never even get's to that level of committment, in a relationship, how can anyone expect it to survive the bad times? And, if it's really just a piece of paper and doesn't add any level of committment to a relationship, then why doesn't everyone just get it? It certainly reduces taxes, makes medical issues easier, makes child rearing easier, we've listened to gay advocates talking about this for years. Those who oppose gay marriage do so because they believe it is more then just a legal issue. I don't really care, one way or another, I think anyone who wants to marry, should be allowed to. But, the point is, people do not marry, not because it's "just a piece of meaningless paper", they don't marry because it's a promise they are not ready to make. If I were just living with a man (not that I would, I would maintain my own place. If a man wants to live with me, he'll need to be prepared to build a life with me, until then I am independent.) and I met or fell in love with a new man, I would end the old relationship first and then pursue the new one. After all, I offered no man any vows. But, if I were committed enough to be married and had taken an oath to a man, I would be required, by my own oath, to resist any interference from outside temptations. I married him for a reason, after all, and those reasons still exist. I believe it is a special and different kind of promise and one I must honor, barring extreme conditions.
Like I said, in my first post Rose, I personally had to draw a line somewhere, for myself, and this is it. This man agreed to buy a house, with his live in. Nowhere in the deed, does it say he's giving her his fidelity. Everyone else here is just assuming he did. Like most women do. I'm not making that assumption. I'm making the assumption that if he wanted to give her his fidelity, he would have offered her the RITUAL of marriage. Then they would have bought the house after, or rented. ;)
[QUOTE=SophiaM]I agree that most of the time when a couple doesn't marry after a reasonable period of time, it indicates one or both might be afraid of fully committing to the other, but there are always exceptions to that rule. My oldest cousin married his girlfriend after 10 years of being together (and living together). Another couple that my friend knows married after 15 years together (they met as freshmen in college and dated all this time, including living together). Women often stay because they'd rather be with that person unmarried than not at all. I stayed with my ex for four years also and well, it's a gamble and I lost, but you can't guarantee a marriage lasting these days, either. Just because a man marries a woman doesn't necessarily indicate higher commitment--my old neighbor's husband started cheating on her only a few months after their wedding, and after 3 years of marriage, they are now divorced.[/QUOTE]
I think marrying after 10 or 15 years is the exception, not the rule. I guess it all depends on the woman's goals in life. If, for example, it's children and family a 35 year old woman wants, she can't afford to wait around 15 years, she just doesn't have the time. That is just an ugly truth of life. Can a woman who's 20 wait 10 years, yes she could but even then, 10 years is a long time to wait on one man. If the woman isn't looking to marry or have children or wants children but not necessarily a husband, then a live in works as well, but it's all still about LEVEL OF COMMITTMENT. I'm not making value judgements on which choice is right or wrong, but they most certainly are not the same.
And I think a man, cheating on his wife after 3 months of marriage, speaks more of his moral character and less on the instutition of marriage. Maybe he was one who should have just lived with a woman. And, why marry after 15 years? What moviated this couple to do so? If the committment hadn't changed why not leave the status quo? What motivates a couple to marry, if not a deepening of love and committment?
Another thing...marriage vows "per se" are mostly a religious act and not everyone believes that way. I am not a religious person, so to make vows before god is not an important thing. I think many people are not Christians so making Christian vows are pointless. I was married for over 20 years and that marriage ended. For me, I don't want to go through another divorce. The fear of a divorce keeps me from legally marrying the man that I love.
[QUOTE=keepsgoin]Another thing...marriage vows "per se" are mostly a religious act and not everyone believes that way. I am not a religious person, so to make vows before god is not an important thing. I think many people are not Christians so making Christian vows are pointless. I was married for over 20 years and that marriage ended. For me, I don't want to go through another divorce. The fear of a divorce keeps me from legally marrying the man that I love.[/QUOTE]
Some marriage vows are Christan but, most certainly, not all of them, as every region and religion has them in some form. There are also secular forms of marriage.
And, I certainly can't fault you for never wanting to go through a divorce again. If it continues to block you from marriage, I wouldn't push myself until, or if, I'm ever ready again. If not, well, you've found the level of committment you are comfortable with. If it's enough for you, that's all that matters. It works for you, it makes you comfortable with your relationship, and it's the result of a lesson you feel life as taught you. As I said earlier, I'm not passing judgement on either way of living, I just see them as very different.
But I'm curious, has your lover ever asked you to marry him? If yes, why do you think he did? If no, why do you think he hasn't yet? If it's never come up, how do you know his level of committment to you? You certainly know your level of committment to him, but what of his to you? I'm not asking you to be suspisious, I'm just wondering how much we women know and how much we just assume. Because, assumptions are what get us hurt. (I'm speaking, in general, here.)
[QUOTE=ozzybug]Tanabear-
I really want to address the issues you are dealing with from your past abusive relationship. Sweetie, my first husband was abusive to me in every way a man can be abusive to a woman, mentally, sexually, physically- you name it. It was a horrid relationship and he had me so manipulated that for some time, I felt that I deserved his treatment and that I wasn't worthy of being loved and treated kindly by a man. I eventually came to my senses and ended that relationship before he got so abusive that I ended up being severly injured or even dead.

Yes- it does leave you scarred, and it does make you want to never trust a man again, but if you can not move beyond this on your own, then you do need to speak with a psychologist and find a way to get through this so you can go on to enjoy a healthy relationship with another man. I swore off any kind of relationship after I got out of my first marriage, BUT with time, I realized that I was only causing myself more pain by not allowing myself to trust another man. I eventually had to deal with my feelings and had to work through them. I was able to do that and am now married to the absolute best man in the world. He loves me and treats me the way a woman deserves to be treated- with love, kindness and caring. I treat him the way he deserves to be treated as well.

Whether you want to admit it or not, your words and posts strongly indicate that you have not been able to work through and get over the damage your former abusive boyfriend treated you. If you allow this to continue to control you, then you will not be able to trust another man and go on to enjoy a relationship that is true and lasting. Why cheat yourself and miss out on having a man love and adore you? Why allow yourself to be a sex toy for some guy? Don't you think any better of yourself? Don't you think you are worth more than that?

Two wrongs don't make a right Tana, and you just keep saying that you aren't cheating. You say that he is, BUT you are helping him cheat. You are an accessory to his affair going on behind his GF's back. I would deffinately compare it to someone saying, "Well, my friend robbed the bank. I didn't. I only drove the get away car for him. I didn't break the law, he did." And although that is technically true, there is responsibility on your part here. You know he is in a relationship with someone else and justifying it doesn't make this any less hurtful to the girlfriend.

You were hurt previously and now it seems that you feel that because of that it's ok to hurt someone else. Two wrongs don't make a right Tana, no matter what kind of "spin" you put on it. Yes, your "BF" is in the relationship with his live in GF, but again, you are also sleeping with him so you do bear some of the responsibility whether you accept and believe that or not. You know there is a GF yet you chose to continue to help drive a wedge between them. This would all be different if you had no idea there was another person involved.

I started seeing a guy years ago, and it just so happened that I found out he had a live in GF and when I found out, I confronted him about it. He gave me the whole song and dance that their relationship was on the "skids" and he wasn't happy with her. Regardless of what he was saying, I wasn't about to knowingly help destroy that relationship, so I ended it immediately and told him I wouldn't be a part of it. Come to find out, they were actually engaged and planning a wedding. I had to do what I felt I could live with, and being involved in an affair with someone who has a girlfriend isn't something I can do. That's me, that's how I am. Some people, like yourself have no problem with it at all, and that is your choice. Again, you do need to be aware, that if this guy is messing around with you, there probably have been other women and may even be other women currently as well.

I hate that you had to endure abuse from another human being because no one deserves that. And again, I'm not judging you at all. I say these things out of concern because I know exactly what abuse from a man can do to a woman. It's not pretty, and it does leave scars. How we chose to deal with working through the pain is up to us, and it sounds like maybe you haven't fully come to terms with what your former BF did to you. And if I am wrong, and you have come to terms with it, then I have to say that it's left you with a terrible outlook on the possibility of a wonderful and loving future relationship with a man that will treat you with respect, love and kindness.

Take Care[/QUOTE]

i know i'm not over it. i can't yet...its only been a few months since the last attack happened, and i'm still dealing with it emotionally as well as physically...head trauma hasn't healed yet. and the trial doesn't start until november...i still have a long ways to go...he got caught beating me the last time, so he's been charged...but i lived through almost two years of abuse with him. its not easy to get over...but i don't think i am purposely trying to hurt anyone. i don't ever want to hurt anyone in any way...maybe i'm just liking the positive attention i'm getting from him? i don't know...I know i don't want any kind of relationship, none at all, i can't deal with that, so maybe this is my way of getting what i need, without attatching myself emotionally. i don't really have any answers...
I was in a relationship years ago. In my eyes, he was the one. I am happily married now, but I still think of him often. He cheated on me by lying about where he was going on vacation. He was supposed to be with family, but was really with some girl on a ski trip in utah. Her family was well to do and actually owned the whole ski resort. I found out accidently at a party, as he had blabbed to mutual friends prior to leaving. Upon his return, I confronted him. He told me that it was a miserable time because she had completely ignored him the whole trip after he had confessed that he had a girlfriend and had lied to her (me) about where he was going. To this day, if I ever met her I would shake her hand and buy her a drink for supporting a girl she didn't even know and standing on her principles. I have not and would never date another man's girlfriend/wife because I don't want that done to me and because as a basic rule, I believe in finishing something before starting something else. I am not condemming you, as the previous post suggests, it's more on him than on you....but remember that it really is true...what goes around comes around.
[QUOTE=eve40]But I'm curious, has your lover ever asked you to marry him? If yes, why do you think he did?[/QUOTE]Oh yes..he has asked me, he wants me to marry him...he always tells me he wants to spend the rest of his life with me.
[QUOTE=tanabear6]i don't ever want to hurt anyone in any way....[/QUOTE]

But you are hurting someone, possibily many people will be hurt when this affair is exposed.
OK, let's just look at it this way...what if you, tanabear, were living with a man for 6 years...y'all had some problems but you were still living together...how would you feel about it if he was having an affair with his co-worker(or anyone for that matter) and how would you feel about the woman that knew good and well that he was in a long term relationship but was having sex with YOUR man anyway? I bet you'd want to kick her "blank"..right?!
Did you always have this view about feeling it was okay to have a fling with someone who was in a relationship that needed help??? He obviously still wants to be with her or he would have left, plain and simple. He can have all the excuses he wants, but thats all they are... excuses ... probably so he can cheat as much as he wants to.
I kinda have a feeling this is still about what happened to you and the abuse... its in a way therapeutic for you to cheat-- hence all the fun you are having in doing this, although, the cheating is to a lesser degree... it still serves its purpose of getting back at your ex for what he did to you as well as shifting the hurt and betrayal on someone else instead of yourself.
I really think you should get counseling just to help you sort out your feelings.
Wow, I can definitely completely relate to the excitement of something that is forbidden. And I'm not one to judge people for doing something that others believe is "wrong"...I think when it comes down to it, all bets are off when it comes to matters of the heart, and feelings towards another person. I once had a "friend" who had a girlfriend; we would hang out all the time, and while we never slept together (I can now say fortunately), the sexual side of it was ALWAYS tossed around. He wouldn't let me meet her for a time, and I felt like this secret of his. Turned out that he couldn't have given a crap less about me, but they aren't even together anymore. He called me after he was single again and after game playing again, I had to face the HARD COLD fact that he STILL didn't want me. He would call intermittenly...play with my head and talk about the OTHER girls he was sleeping with. It got very sick.

The point is, this guy is taken. I know it is going to be difficult to put yourself in this girl's shoes, but try to just for a minute. You may not be attached now and it may just be a physical thing at the moment, but what if you do get attached? What if she knows its going on? I'm definitely not trying to say its anyone's fault, just that being the "other woman" is 9 times out of 10 probably going to end up badly... I wish you luck :)
First of all, it doesn't matter whether or not they are married . Cheating is cheating. And, it doesn't matter how long he lived with her and the fact they are not married yet, who is to say she is waiting for him? maybe she doesn't want to get married.
A man can cheat, married or not it doesn't matter what his perceived level of commitment its. We don't really know the reasons why he is doing the cheating. Some men go into marriage because the woman wants it so he goes into a marriage knowing he will not be faithful but he doesn't want to lose her. Does this make him better or worse than the faithful man who is in a committed 5yr relationship but just lives together? A ring means nothing if there are no morals behind it - after all the divorce rate is around 50%.

Honestly, I feel sorry for you Tara, as you don't have enough self esteem to see you are being used. You don't have the power, he does. If you can't be open with your relationship and are working hard to keep "his secret" then your are in a losing situation. I think you feel safe with him as you know he won't leave her so you are risking nothing - no emotional attachment - no expectations - no commitment on your behalf. You don't have to give him anything as all he expects is sex with no emotions - something you are comfortable with. I see all women in these types of relationships as the losers as they really think they hold the power which they obviously don't. A man who will cheat with you will cheat on you. I think it was Dr. Phil that said "if you can't do it in front of your partner then it is cheating". Both of you are obviously keeping a huge secret from the girlfriend. Since, he is the one in the relationship, he owes it to her to either break it off or tell her and let her decide. Since he won't tell you and is working extremely hard to hide it from her it shows he has feelings for her.

Any woman who values herself will want a committed, honest, trustworthy man who will reciprocate love. I think you are lacking in self esteem and given your past I see why. Go to councilling and seek help as rationalizing your behaviour only makes it more sad.

His girfriend is the one in the dark, the only victim here. Since you are keeping a secret and won't tell her what is going on then you are lying when you say you don't care - you obviously do care or you would have told her by now. She has a right to know. His behaviour could very well be causing her behaviour towards him.
If he didn't want to be with her he wouldn't be. He wants the best of both worlds - a nice woman at home and another for a sex partner (this will soon wear off and you will really see who he is). It is not fun to hurt another, it is not a fling, you are dealing with someone else's life here. She may very well dump him once she finds out or, to your amazement they may work it out. Either way, you have no business being in the middle of their relationship. End it, tell her, and move on. If you have no desire to have a healthy relationship then just be alone until you are ready for a real one-on-one relationship with your dignity in tact and your head up high.
Hi Tanabear and posters...

This thread really struck a chord with me. So many similarities to my situation. The irony of it is that I posted that situation on here a few months ago.. and was absolutely FLAMED. Not that the advice wasn't "correct" (although, thats always a matter of opinion)... but I think the posts here were fantastic. Especially from the first couple of posters.

I'm also 22. He's also 30. He also works where I do. I have been sleeping with him for 2 months, and he is in a long-term relationship with another woman. Seeing a few similarities? :dizzy: Now you see why I just had to reply to this thread.

It is a hard pill to swallow, isn't it, when you expose your 'infidelities' here, looking for some rationalization, perhaps someone to say its 'all ok' and to carry on as you are, or find some connection with someone who has been through it and has come out of it beaming and high-fiving and feeling like a winner... and all you get is warnings, doubts and a big lecture on morality.

Thing is, after being through it, I'm inclined to say that all the warnings are pretty much correct. I started off as you did, loving it, in complete lust with this man... I have always been attracted to older men, and he is a stunner too, we connect fantastically, great friend, great in bed... the whole lot. We had been flirting for what felt like years. I never thought anything of it - he had a gf of 3 years. Until he ended up in my bed one night. Shocker.

It is a couple of months later, and I feel pretty damn awful. Guilt is sometimes delayed.. it did not set in for me until a few weeks ago. He does not live with this gf, and he has told me EVERYTHING your guy has told you, and the rest - they hardly sleep together and when they do the sex is bad and not passionate, they are different, she is nagging and high maintenance and demanding, she is a workaholic and has different views on life to him... all of that bull. But then I stopped and thought... what do I really know about this girl? She works hard, is close to her family, career-minded, has lots of friends... it occured to me that I have only really heard his side of the story, and the cold, hard facts do NOT paint a negative picture of her in the slightest. Then the guilt set in. She is being CHEATED on by this guy... who probably adores him just like I do. Nagging and high-maintenance? Maybe she is just smarter than he has given her credit for. She probably senses he's a liar and a cheater.

This guilt is no fun, Tanabear! It creeps up on you too. Then you begin to realise just how unimportant you are in their life, aswell. They are still WITH their gf's, despite all they say to us. Actions speak louder than words. They are men that go for what they want, thats why they are sleeping with us, isn't it? Then why don't they break up with their gf's? There are many ways to rationalize this. "Oh, he's just busy. He's lazy. He doesn't want the monumental fallout with his ***** gf. It is easier for him to just keep it how it is". No, no, no. Truth is, for whatever reason, he is too cowardly, or needs and wants something from her, and we are just the 'side order', and never the main course. Mix in the fact that i was easy in the first place, and now he doesn't have any REASON to change the situation, cos he's getting everything he wants, isn't he? His cake, and eating it too, so to speak.

It was when I realised, on top of all this, that I had developed feelings for him, that my decision REALLY hit me hard in the face. Its no fun, and it can happen slowly, and with plenty of denial and a good dose of excuses, you can make yourself believe you are fine with the situation when you really aren't. That is why I posted my original post on this board, and believe it or not, that is why you did too.

I know the mum's probably told you a whole lot about their 'failing relationship'.. but I had that too... his best friend is my close friend, and he tells me all the time they are 'miss-matched' and the rest. But at the end of the day, these people don't know. The only one that knows is him, and he's not exactly getting 10/10 for honesty, judging by his actions. Sux, I know. But seeing as you don't want a relationship, it shouldnt matter to you I suppose.

I truly think, if you are fine with it, and you are having fun and it continues in that way, and you are careful about who finds out (extra careful! Its hard!) then you are a much more resiliant person than me, and good luck to you! I wish my situation could have worked out better. Perhaps it still will, but only if he straps on a pair, and breaks up with his gf. Be careful around work, people can pick up on body-language very well, i've noticed. I've already been interrogated by a couple of people. Think up some good lines! Keep it cool. Although by this stage... perhaps you are back to studying again.

Let me know whats happening... I'd love to hear your situation lately, maybe it will help with mine.

And if anyone else can add their 2cents, I think I need them right now!

Tyger.
Oh one other thought... I have noticed a few have advised to 'tell her'... as in tell his gf what he has been doing... as part of the moving on process. She deserves to know, but is this really something I should do? Or Tanabear should do if she ends it? I've been considering it but not sure if it is right of me to do that or not...

Advice please!
tyger and tana bear i can relate to yous and relate to the girlfriends since right now im in a relationship right now 5 years we have our 3 year old togther and have our apartment togther i would be sooo hurt if my fiance cheated on me. but like i said i can relate to yous too because when i was 17 i was seeing a guy he was 21 and had a live in girlfriend he was with her for 5 years when me and him met. at first i said the same things yous are saying its for fun i didnt care and of coarse i blamed it all on her well hes saying she doesnt cook right or they dont sleep togther or like guys like to say she nags to much same lines as these guys are telling yous. and another thing he would say well were like roommates we dont even sleep in the same bed he s;ept on the couch she slept in the bed. i would even stay at his house on the weekends while she visited with her family an hour away. the only thing is i wasnt a secret his friends knew about me and even his mother they didnt even care. but the fun part ended i was falling in love with him after 7 or 8 months of seeing him. after awhile i told him its me or her i couldnt take it anymore he promised me that he was gonna give her a month to move out than he would be with me for good i was so excited. well a month went by guess whos still living there so i got really sneaky i found out her last name my mom helped me to when we finally called the operator and found out her parents number i called her and we talked for hours on the phone. i found out everything that he said he lied he didnt sleep on the couch he slept with her. and he never gave her a month to get out she thought she was the only girl in his life. but she end up moving out with her parents than me being stupid thought well now i can have him since shes deffintly out of the picture well yous know that saying that everyones using on here what goes around comes around well that happend to me i was finally his girlfriend and he cheated on me our relationship ended after 2 years i was 19 when i finally got common sence and now very happy in my relationship of 5 years were getting married in a year and i will never hurt anyone like that again i had to learn the hard way by talking to his girlfriend and being cheated on by him to.and the funny thing is me and his ex now still talk once in awhile she is a very nice person she wasnt anything like he said she was. so i say if you feel like you need to talk to this guys girlfriend than yeah tell her. i hope my experience helps out both you girls and remember there are nice guys out there for yous but you have to let the jerks go first before yous find him.
It'd be nice to think lessons would be learned from Mommyjens story above, but most likely they wont, because this story has been relived and retold enough times to be as old as the hills, and many women obviously still havent gotten it's lessons through their heads.

This is a very long thread, and was begun before I came here, so I havent read all of the posts, just a few at the beginning. I have to say I am a bit gobsmacked at some of what I've read. I just cant imagine why the original couple under discussion (the man and woman who'd been living together for six years) had their level of commitment called into question??!!

It seems to me there was a sense of excusing the affair on the back of the fact that the couple were not married. All I have to say to that is - what nonsense! The exact level of commitment is immaterial. It dosent matter if a couple have been married for twenty years or living-in-sin for twenty days - the fact is they're committed - and nobody has a right to spit on that commitment. The exact degree of the commitment just dosent come into it.
I think the real issue is lack of self worth. The original poster may have some self esteem issues to allow herself to be used as the girl on the side. This guy is a jerk plain and simple. Even if it is a fling or casual and no emotions are involved (which will most likely develop over time) you are still lowering yourself. Why bother sneaking around and dealing with his baggage, when you can have a fling with someone completely free like yourself. And it sounds like you have rationalized the situation as to make it all ok and not your fault. Balming the affair on the girlfriend ect.. Sounds a lot like what "the other woman" usually does.
howdy all,
Tanabear being in almost the same situation you are, I have to say I feel little remorse for my partners wife. I mean at times I do feel bad for his wife, but they have a rough history and their marriage has been on the rocks for at least 5 years. I don't think that having this feeling of no remorse makes us bad people, or "wrong" people, maybe a little selfish. Also, I don't think it makes the man a bad person either. Sure the stereotype is "once a cheater always a cheater" and "what do you think he will do to you in a year or 2 of marriage." But the truth of the matter is not ALL situations are the same and I've heard of good coming out of these types of relationships. Sometimes the other women or man are difficult to live with and overbearing or abusive but the spouse can't get out because of financial issues or children. There are a ton of situations that could come about and no matter what, people would view it as wrong or "immortal." Personaly, I probably would have thought the same thing if I had come here 3 years ago and read this post. But after being in the situation, I view things differently and try to make it a point in life not to judge a person on their actions, unless I've been in the situation. So to you tanabear, i say keep doing what you need to stay happy. You may even be doing the other woman a favour because he obviously isn't committed to her.
I wonder what the latest is on this one...this is pretty old by now!

Just wanted to say to those that felt like they needed to bring this back up is that CHEATERS have this wonderful knack of making the cheatee think that their relationship with their either spouse or partner is crap. Don't fall for that BS! All you people have to go on is the word of a cheater telling you how rocky their relationship is...I say horse sh**!!!!! If it was so bad they'd get out!
tyger when i told the girlfriend of the guy i was seeing i never met her in my whole life of coarse i heard about her from the guy i was seeing of coarse it was all bad things. when i called her i just came out with it i asked her if she was moving out if they did break up the way i looked at it i had a right to know like she had a right to know he was lieing to me and her. and to be honest she told me shes glad i called her and told her. and when she came home she went to my house to catch him in a lie because she wanted to make sure i wasnt lieing i had 2 phones she went on the 1 phone and i talked to him on the other she heard him tell me he loved me and that she was leaving he was kicking her out we were very sneaky so we both busted him on the phone. and go figure after awhile we became friends. we both werent mad at each other he was the jerk we werent. she might be happy that you tell her she has the right to know that her bf is a jerk.
Good for you Mommyjen!!!!! See the thing is that even though the "other woman" isn't really doing right by being with a man that's either married or in a long term relationship...really a lot of time the OW is a victim just like the spouse is a victim. They are both being lied to, usually the OW is being filled with a pile of BS so high you'd drown if you stepped in it! And the wife(or husband whatever the situation is) is totally in the dark. I recently found out that the woman that my NOW husband lived with for 12 years was living a double life and my husband was clueless. She lived with my NOW husband like a couple but she had the man she was in love with on the side....the man she was in love with was being told that the man she lived with(my husband) was her roommate...WHATEVER!!!! You can bet that my husband would have loved to have known that she was in love with someone else so he could have moved on and found someone that really loved him and wasn't just using him for a roof over her head(which is exactly what she was doing) she didn't even work a job...she sat at home and had sex with some other man in their bed all day while he worked to pay for her bills! Oh and another line she used was that my [I]now[/I] husband didn't like sex so that's why she had to get it somewhere else...WHAT!!!!!!!!!! My husband is a sex addict(he's a man!)! We have sex at least once a day...what a liar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What I think is this. You are hurting yourself. You love him, he loves himself. Can you imagine being his girlfriend? It could be you one day. One day you might get him and what are you going to be thinking each time he is out of your sight? And why wouldn't he cheat on you. He's doing it now each time he is with his girlfriend. Imagine her pain one day when she finds this out. I know you don't want to give him up. I know you are having fun and enjoying sex and being what you think is loved by him. But are you really? Are you really enjoying putting yourself through this each and everyday? How do you feel when you go to sleep at night knowing he is sleeping with another woman. If he is telling you he doesn't love her or not having sex with her don't believe that for a minute. He is not commented to her legally and can walk any time he wants, but he chooses, yes chooses, not to. Why is that? How do you know there isn't someone else besides you on the side? Do you really want to be with this man for the rest of your life, giving everything you have and getting only part of him? How does that make you feel when you look in the mirror knowing you are not his everything? I hope for you a healthy relationship with someone who wants only you and give you his all while you can do the same for him. I am not judging you, we each in life do what we think is right for us even though we know sometimes in our heart it's not. We are only free when we truly know we deserve better than what we are getting and move forward to obtain it. You are stuck and moving nowhere for 6 years now. Are you willing to give 6 more? If you are, you will only get what he will give you and nothing more. I hope you're satisfied with that. I think you deserve more, I just wish you did.
Take care.
Yeah, those kind of people that chronically cheat and do so effortlessly will just continue on with the cheating. So if the OP ever is this man's GF then she will most likely be cheated on too. And believe you me if that man really was in love with the OP, he would leave that GF in a second! People get divorced all the time when they fall in love with someone else even when there are children involved! For instance(of how the cycle continues) when my husband first started to date that woman that he lived with for 12 years she was in a relationship with another man and said that he would beat her and slam her head up against the wall...gosh funny thing is that man is the one she had the 12 year long affair with the whole time they were together. Those kind of people will come up with whatever story they know will get to the person they want to attract for their own selfish needs. She knew that my husband thinks that a man that would hit a woman is the lowest of low so that's the story she came up with! The real truth was that man she was in love with didn't want to have a live in GF anymore so she needed to find a schmuck to take care of her but she didn't want to give up the sex she had with that guy she was in love with.
everybodys right even if he leaves his gf or if she finds out and moves out that if yous end up togther that he wont cheat on you because he cheated on his gf your no diffrent if he really cared about you he would leave now he doesnt have a ring there not married he can tell her that hes not happy and be with you but hes not. i wish i knew about these message boards when i was 17 or 18 and when i was with this guy because alot of advice your getting is good and i wouldnt of been with him for 2 years and wasted my life on him.i learned the hard way i got back with this guy a few weeks after they broke up he gave me this really bad line that he was glad i told her he couldnt he didnt want to hurt her stuff i beleaved him i was 18 young and naive. so than i was his girlfriend thought i was the only girl in his life and i was for the first month after we first got togther after they broke up guess i got old very quick. i found out after i let him use my car my mom just bought for me he asked if he can use it for a few hours at the time i didnt care. a few days later i went in my trunk for something found a highheel in my trunk it wasnt mine i dont keep my shoes in my trunk of my car. thats how i found out he was cheating on me. thats why i agree with everybody else if they truly love you they would leave there gf for you. expecially you said they dont even live togther so they dont have bills or anything togther thats tying them togther where he feels stuck or anything. hes just a loser. and your worried about your friends knowing what you did if they were your real friends they woulndt want you to be hurt if there gonna get mad at you for that there not your real friends.
rememeber one thing...if he cheats on her..when things get bad in your relationship (or even too comfortable) he will cheat on you. Once a cheat always a cheat in my book.
Yuck, I can't understand why so many women sit there and allow themselves to be second best with a cheater who will most likely never leave the person they are committed to.

It doesn't matter how bad their relationship is, he's obviously not breaking up with that gf of his. Why let yourself always be second best to him? Why not find a great guy who will ALWAYS put YOU first instead of someone else?

Why is that such a hard concept? I have to believe that self esteem is a huge issue with these women who accept this type of arrangement. Because a woman with low self-esteem will just settle for what she gets, even if it's a guy who already has a gf that he will never leave. But a woman with a high self esteem will rarely, if ever, put up with such a farce.





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